Lockerbie: London Origin Theory

I realize I was being snippy above... I guess I'm stuck enough on the matching bags notion to get a little sarcastic about it. I'll continue developing that on my blog to see when it finally fails, but for the discussion here, I'd really like to just move past that point, presume one IED style bag like most people do, and continue with the larger picture. Sry my bad. k?

I did have a minor point about bag positioning and/or the origins of luggage in AVE4041. All pieces of the primary case frame that were found,strangely, were found sequentially (by numbers: PT/22, PT/23, PT/24, PT/25) in different pieces of luggage. PT/22 is from the bottom of the suitcase (hinge end) and PT/23 and 24 are from the top (latch end). (PT/25 is non-descript).
Suitcase_Fragments_watermark.jpg


The one from the bottom side (two pieces actually, PT/22 a and b) wound up inside Sophie Hudson's purple holdall, PH/137. Ms. Hudson was a Heathrow-originating passenger. That is, non-interline, non-PA103A.

I'll let anyone else puzzle over or discuss what exactly that can tell us about what happened.
 
Since the Herald changed its web site a year or so ago, the search function has become absolutely abysmal. There's some stuff up there right back to early 1989 at least, but searching the site is beyond me.


I've finally had a chance to (somewhat) catch up on this. Trying to get my mind around the whole story makes my head hurt, but I have to say that, sadly, there was apparently reasonable doubt about the entire "Libyan connection" that was ignored, presumably due to political pressure. :(

I concur that the Herald's new search function is a disaster; in particular the fact that it will only display 50 pages of hits, the fact that there is no option to sort by reverse dates, and the fact that logical operators (AND, NOT, OR) don't seem to be supported. I was able to find a lot of articles, however, by searching on the phrase "Pan Am Flight 103" in quotation marks and skipping to the last page, of which there are fortunately only 48 at the moment (though I imagine that will increase in the coming months). Here are some that I found that might be relevant. I'll look for more later, though I suspect Buncrana has a better idea of what you're looking for.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/cid-trace-panam-bomb-s-container-1.643156

CID trace PanAm bomb's container

ANDREW McCALLUM

18 Jan 1989

. . . However, Detective Chief Superintendent John Orr, who is leading the global investigation, refused at a news conference yesterday in the Border town to disclose anything about how, why, where or when it was placed in the container.

He admitted he had ''indications'' of where the baggage in the container came from, but declined to elaborate.

Mr Orr, flanked by a senior West German detective, Mr Helge Tepp and special FBI agent Mr Harold Hendershot, conceded: ''I know several things I didn't know 21!/;1/ weeks ago, but I am not going to say what they are.''

The presence of Mr Tepp, from Bonn, fuelled speculation that the bomb was place aboard Flight 103 at Frankfurt, rather than London. . . .


http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/lockerbie-747-bomb-identified-1.639742

Lockerbie 747 bomb identified

ANDREW McCALLUM,

17 Feb 1989

. . . The international team of investigators now know that the bomb on flight 103 to New York was planted in a radio-cassette player.

The machine was probably hidden in luggage at Frankfurt and transferred to the Clipper Maid of the Seas at Heathrow, the detective leading the hunt for the murderers disclosed yesterday.

Detective Chief Superintendent John Orr of Strathclyde Police said at a news conference in Lockerbie that painstaking reconstruction of the fragmented 700kg aluminium container suggested that the device was among the luggage from the German airport.

Loaded into the Heathrow container was also inter-airline baggage. He gave no further details of the radio-cassette because this could harm the investigation. . . .


http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/panam-bomb-was-in-the-cargo-hold-channon-defends-action-on-warning-1.643873

PanAm bomb 'was in the cargo hold' Channon defends action on warning

STUART TROTTER

11 Jan 1989

INVESTIGATORS into the Lockerbie air disaster are convinced that the bomb which blew up the PanAm jumbo was in the aircraft's No. 1 cargo hold, just forward of the wing, Transport Secretary Mr Paul Channon told the Commons yesterday.

However, he said it was too early to say how the article containing the bomb had been placed in the aircraft.

Mr Channon rejected Labour criticisms of him for not informing the Commons the morning after the crash that a warning had been given early in December that there would be a bomb attack against a PanAm flight from Frankfurt to the United States. . . .


http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport...ngs-and-pictures-missing-in-the-post-1.636099

Flight 103: tale of two warnings and pictures missing in the post

STUART TROTTER

17 Mar 1989

THE murder of the passengers and crew of PanAm 103 over Lockerbie is, among other things, a tale of two warnings.

To one the Ministry of Transport appears to have responded promptly and reasonably efficiently. The other warning has been firmly rejected as a red herring by Ministers although its prediction was so accurate as to make that judgment appear, on the face of it, grotesque.

On October 27 the German police carried out a successful raid on a flat in Frankfurt and a car belonging to members of the General Command of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.

The Germans believe those arrested could be connected with the downing of PanAm 103 and Scottish police have flown out and interviewed the suspects. Included in the police haul was a Semtex bomb concealed in a Toshiba Bom Beat Model 453 radio cassette. . . .


http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/questions-mount-for-channon-1.635968

Questions mount for Channon

By STEPHEN McGREGOR,Parliamentary Correspondent
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20 Mar 1989

THE letter describing the type of bomb which destroyed the Lockerbie jet was not posted until the new year -- after PanAm flight 103 was blown up.

A Transport Department spokesman admitted last night that the letter was not sent out to airlines immediately because accompanying colour photographs of a suspect radio cassette had to be prepared. . . .


http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/lockerbie-bomb-theory-points-to-heathrow-1.603910


Lockerbie bomb theory points to Heathrow

andrew mccallum

9 Nov 1989

Weisbaden.

UNLESS the bomb which blew up PanAm flight 103 over Lockerbie was put on board at Heathrow it could not have been of the Toshiba radio cassette type found by West German police in raids 13 months ago, it was claimed yesterday.

The timer of such a bomb, activated by a barometric trigger, had only a span of less than 50 minutes before it required resetting.

Therefore such a device could not have been put on the feeder flight from Malta or on the first leg of flight 103 from Frankfurt to London, according to Dr Jim Swire, spokesman for the relatives of the victims.

Dr Swire, in Weisbaden, claimed that investigators of the disaster, which killed 270 people, had not ruled out that a bomb was put on board at Heathrow. He said his information about the bomb had come from an expert source . . .


http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/libyan-link-to-lockerbie-blast-1.641531

Libyan link to Lockerbie blast

From the archive

3 Feb 1989

INVESTIGATORS believe that employees of Libyan Arab Airways in Frankfurt planted the bomb which destroyed a PanAm Jumbo jet four days before Christmas, killing 270 people in and around Lockerbie, according to the American television network CBS News.

In a follow-up to its report on Wednesday night that the Palestinian terrorist Ahmad Jibril, sponsored by Syria and Libya, was believed to have built the bomb, CBS said this morning that the sophisticated device was in a suitcase which did not belong to any passenger aboard PanAm flight 103.

The CBS version contradicts a Radio Forth report, which said that an American agent of the Central Intelligence Agency unwittingly had the bomb in his luggage. . . .


http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/bag-check-flaws-facing-flight-103-1.550221

Bag check flaws facing flight 103

ANDREW McCALLUM
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10 Nov 1990

A PANAM executive admitted yesterday that an unaccompanied bag, slipped on to the first leg of flight 103 at Frankfurt, would not have been spotted when it reached Heathrow.

It would have been transferred to the Boeing 747 in London, along with other baggage for the second leg of the journey to New York.

This disclosure, from PanAm's general manager at Heathrow, Mr Alan Tucker, 47, was made at the Lockerbie disaster inquiry during questioning by US lawyer Mr Lee Kreindler, representing American relatives of disaster victims. . . .
 
Oh, yeah. it's the Sabbath. That would explain the slowness here but for the heathen SpitfireIX. That was the reason for me, but it's less than three hours to midnight, and my God is a relativist anyway, so...

I've finally had a chance to (somewhat) catch up on this. Trying to get my mind around the whole story makes my head hurt, but I have to say that, sadly, there was apparently reasonable doubt about the entire "Libyan connection" that was ignored, presumably due to political pressure.

Thanks for speaking up then, good sir. This whole thing can be quite complicated, especially with me around throwing spanners into the works, all the time, even good works. Sorry for my part. The big picture is clear enough though, isn't it? Anything but an open-and-shut case, questions galore. Some of the evidence just has to be planted, and it puts another question mark or three next to each of the other pieces. If nothing else, we can say "whoah, this may not have happened right the first time around."

I concur that the Herald's new search function is a disaster; in particular the fact that it will only display 50 pages of hits, the fact that there is no option to sort by reverse dates, and the fact that logical operators (AND, NOT, OR) don't seem to be supported. I was able to find a lot of articles, however, by searching on the phrase "Pan Am Flight 103" in quotation marks and skipping to the last page, of which there are fortunately only 48 at the moment (though I imagine that will increase in the coming months). Here are some that I found that might be relevant. I'll look for more later, though I suspect Buncrana has a better idea of what you're looking for.

Thanks a ton for all these. It seems they're in danger of sliding into obscurity but still available. Perfect time to do some archiving. Some real gems just here. Dr. Swire discussing the timing with the Germans way back in late '88. You know, it's said the Germans spent a year insisting the bomb went on at Heathrow, but never provided any kid of proof I'm sure they were kept in the dark about Bedford's story. But really, all they kept saying, and it was true, was the American-British insistence that all failures fell in Germany couldn't be right. IF they screwed up with the Autumn Leaves gang and their bomb did 103, then the bomb could not have come from Frankfurt as they insisted. That's it. But the Scots were always furious at their insolence and stuff, and snapping back that they were idiots who were sloppy and let their crappy bomb techs die, so shut up.

Also, Libyans - at frankfurt - accused as early as february '89? What the hell is that about? Vince's early stirrings? Decided to come back to it after a cup of coffee and a fistfull of planted evidence? That's an interesting angle to look into, it is.

Again, thanks.
 
This search at heral Scotland worked well for me: "Investigators" "Frankfurt" Flight 103." Sort by relevance.

Here's one that ties together some previous points:
http://www.heraldscotland.com:80/sport/spl/aberdeen/bonn-says-bomb-planted-in-uk-1.644309
Jan 7 1989:
BRITISH investigators believe the bomb which destroyed the PanAm Boeing 747 over Lockerbie was probably smuggled aboard by a worker at Heathrow Airport, West German intelligence sources said today.

... explosives were planted directly under the flight deck in a passage to the forward baggage hold.
<snip>
They said British reports that the bomb might have been planted in a passenger's luggage in a connecting flight from Frankfurt, and then transferred to the 747 at Heathrow, were being increasingly discounted by British investigators.

The West German sources said if the bomb had been planted in a suitcase, it would have taken at least 66lb to cause such an explosion.
 
Don't want to derail this thread, but can anyone point me to whatever thread discussed Atef Abu Bakr, Youssef Shaaban and details of a Fatah Revolutionary Council meeting in 1989?

Thanks in advance.


We haven't discussed that at all to the best of my knowledge. I really don't know anything about it. If you think it's important, it might be worth a new thread? Maybe even a thread to discuss the influence of Middle Eastern politics on the entire affair?

Rolfe.
 
As I pointed out in an earlier post, if someone was in a position to examine the structural integrity of the aircraft, basic research on it would have revealed;

Aircraft Specific Modifications - N739PA differed in that it had received CRAF (Civil Reserve Air Fleet) Modifications. This enabled it to carry special freight containers in the rear in place of passenger seating. CRAF modification involves changing the flooring along with the addition of a rear cargo hatch and heavy duty floor beams with a more substantial cross section that that of a standard 747-121. Effectively making N739PA stronger than the average Boeing 747."1
So, one would think THIS particular aircraft would have been avoided as it may have been LESS likely to break up as a result of a bomb blast.

1. http://www.justiceforlockerbie.com/n739pa/


I haven't read that web site in detail, but it looks as if it would repay greater scrutiny. However it does have a bit of a CT flavour, with some of its "undisputed facts" being very much disputed, for example.


  • American "officials" were tampering with evidence, bodies and luggage immediately after the crash, despite Dumfries and Galloway police having command and asking them not to
  • Several suitcases WERE removed from the crash site without being logged or recorded
  • The FBI tried to take command of the crash scene and exclude Dumfries and Galloway Police citing they were not equipped to deal with it and it was an American aircraft therefore they should have jurisdiction.
  • A Hezbollah t-shirt was found amongst the wreckage.

In addition, I note one "undisputed fact" which is quite seriously and horribly WRONG.

  • The smoking gun, a piece of MEBO MST-13 timer circuit board, was not found in clothing, it was found in a metal ID plate which had been folded in half.

How much confidence should we have in research which can come up with that one?

I have read, somewhere else, a fairly comprehensive debunking of this "the plane was a special reinforced model" point, unfortunately I don't recall where I read it. As with most theories surrounding this affair, it starts with a grain of truth, but then blows it up out of all proportion. If I come across the debunking page, I'll post a link.

Rolfe.

ETA: I just picked up this quote as well. The authors of that site really do not have a clue.

When the evidence was being gathered by the Police, RAF and Officials (including FBI officials) a miraculous find was made. A small piece of circuit board, smaller than a thumbnail, was found within some other debris. The FBI later found this to be part of a MEBO circuit board used as a timer. As far as the FBI were concerned, they had their smoking gun. However, for reasons that will become clear later, this is the single most disputed piece of evidence in the whole case.

The fragment of circuit board along with a burnt Toshiba Manual found 100 miles away allowed the FBI to come to the conclusion that the IED was exploded by Timer and was contained within a Toshiba Bomb Beat radio cassette. This immediately rang alarm bells with the West German Police who, just 3 months earlier, had arrested a terrorist cell and found a bomb contained in a Toshiba Bomb Beat radio. These terrorists were members of the Popular Front for the Liberation Palestine - General Command (PFLP-GC). The FBI however stated that it was purely a coincidence as the model found in Germany had a barometric timer and the radio/cassette only had one speaker, the Lockerbie Bomb had two! It also didn't have a MEBO circuit board in it.


They are totally confused between the MST-13 fragment found in the shirt collar by Hayes, and the fragment of Toshiba circuit board found much earlier by Inspector Claiden in the data plate of AVE4041. Serious health warning for the entire site, if you ask me.

ETA again. They're making a documentary.

This web site runs hand in hand with a documentary being produced by QI Films. It is a result of over 20 years of investigation and features Current and Ex-CIA operatives, Declassified, and some still classified files and it contains the evidence that the authorities hoped would never come out.

It proves beyond question, and with unequivocable evidence, who really blew up Pan Am 103, and we will name them!

The project is almost complete and should be on general release by Christmas 2009. (although we have already had indication that the US authorities will attempt to block release, but they can only do that in the US)


Christmas 2009, eh? Six months ago. This is just lame, anyway. Basic errors in fact do not a credible documentary make.
 
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Awesome finds, Buncrana! If only I'd waited to rewrite my Scots-German War posts. Since they all go together, here are those links:
http://lockerbiedivide.blogspot.com/2010/06/what-did-british-know.html
http://lockerbiedivide.blogspot.com/2010/02/what-did-germans-know.html

A few points here that pop out.

I never heard that little theory. Very interesting addition. I hear Jan 6 was the same day they said the bomb was "at least 66 pounds," which somehow also equalled Heathrow intro. Not the best kind of arguments to be making.

I had March 28, LICC memo for Orr using that phrase. Maybe twice, or another of Leppard's ubiquitous little mistakes. But we know that this speculation was based on very little - all the damaged luggage but one they IDENTIFIED (were they stalling one some?) was from Frankfurt. And the container clues suggesting 2nd level placement. But suddenly a tentative statement like that, coming from investigators, becomes "Device 'Did Come From Frankfurt'" at its most potent spot - summed up in a simple headline seen by millions.

Will come back to your post above that.


I think one thing to be aware of when looking at the early press reports is that a number of theories inevitably get aired which are subsequently shot down. The idea that the bomb was anywhere else but inside AVE4041 is one. You only have to look at the reconstructed container and the description of the damage to realise it's an open-and-shut case. And the question of the size of the bomb. We might be going over 1lb but not as much as 2lb. Whatever funny stuff has gone on over the years, it's pretty much undisputed that even such a small bomb in that position could have done the deed. I think the Germans were looking at the comprehensive break-up of the plane and imagining that was caused by the explosion, rather than by wind resistance. Once the pieces had been recovered and put back together, it as a lot clearer.

The interesting part about the early reports is how much insight they give into who knew what when. Was "brown Samsonite" common knowledge before Bedford made his initial statements, for example? What are Frankfurt saying about Malta (or not), and about Heathrow?

Rolfe.
 
I think one thing to be aware of when looking at the early press reports is that a number of theories inevitably get aired which are subsequently shot down. The idea that the bomb was anywhere else but inside AVE4041 is one. You only have to look at the reconstructed container and the description of the damage to realise it's an open-and-shut case. And the question of the size of the bomb. We might be going over 1lb but not as much as 2lb. Whatever funny stuff has gone on over the years, it's pretty much undisputed that even such a small bomb in that position could have done the deed. I think the Germans were looking at the comprehensive break-up of the plane and imagining that was caused by the explosion, rather than by wind resistance. Once the pieces had been recovered and put back together, it as a lot clearer.

The interesting part about the early reports is how much insight they give into who knew what when. Was "brown Samsonite" common knowledge before Bedford made his initial statements, for example? What are Frankfurt saying about Malta (or not), and about Heathrow?

Rolfe.

I was looking for (and think I've found) solid clues about what investigators, those in the know, knew at an early date. But the bomb-under-the-deck idea is clearly not based on anything solid. It's a little bit of a strange episode. Might hold some clues of its own.

That same article talks about a Mr. Jonston's threatened precognition, a favorite talking point of mr. Norrie's. Still not sure I understand it, but it suggests a bomb intro at Helsinki via Frankfurt, so I tend to doubt it up front.

And since this is where the discussion is most active at the moment, it won't derail much to ask here if anyone feels I got anything wrong with this post on the discussion here.
 
As if to prod me, Vincent Cannistraro popped up on Radio 2 this morning offering his take on the Russians arrested in the US yesterday, accused of spying. I'm hoping to have a further browse around some of those old articles again this afternoon - I'll see if I can narrow the search to The Herald Rolfe, and see what turns up - hopefully dropping a few more clues about a timeline of the investigation path taken.

Here's an article dealing with Radio Forth's David Johnson, who's interviewed in Maltese Double Cross, and his impromptu meeting with security officials.

The Guardian (London)

February 3, 1989

Police silent on Lockerbie 'clue'

BYLINE: By PETER MURTAGH

LENGTH: 387 words

Police investigating the Lockerbie air disaster refused to confirm or deny a report yesterday that Palestinian terrorists may have smuggled the bomb which destroyed the plane into the luggage of an American CIA agent.
Radio Forth, quoting Scottish police sources, said investigators believed that 1.4 kilograms of Semtex explosive and a timing device were slipped into the agent's luggage by Palestinian terrorists who infiltrated the CIA's Beirut mission. Sources said the bomb was placed in luggage that carried 'quite sensitive documents.'

There has been speculation since the crash on December 21, in which 270 people died, 11 of them in Lockerbie, that three of the passengers were working for the CIA.

The US State Department in Washington has confirmed only that three of the victims were 'civilian security advisors' to the US government which could mean they worked for the CIA, the National Security Council, the National Security Agency, or one of several other US intelligence bodies. Two of the 'advisors' are understood to have been working in Beirut, the other in Cyprus.

Mr David Johnson, head of the news department at Radio Forth, reported the CIA officer was returning from Beirut with five colleagues after a mission to negotiate release of the nine American hostages in Lebanon had failed. Radio Forth said the baggage was shipped from Beirut via Helsinki to Frankfurt, West Germany, where the agents caught the flight bound for New York.
The timer was believed to have been activated during the stop in Helsinki, the report said. It was in Helsinki that police warned the US authorities that a terrorist attack might be launched against a Pan Am transatlantic flight beginning at Frankfurt.

The spokesman for the Lockerbie investigation, Chief Inspector Gordon Ferrie, said he had no comment on the report.

In America, CBS television news quoted 'sources in the international terrorist movement' saying that the leader of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command was responsible for the bombing.

CBS said the PFLP leader, Ahmed Jibril, a former Syrian army intelligence officer, masterminded the attack with the backing of Libya and Syria. The Secretary of State, Mr James Baker, said on Wednesday that he could not confirm the CBS report.

So, contrary to most opinions, only 6 weeks after the event, the theory that would later become the Aviv 'bag-switch' theory was nascent 2 years before Aviv and 5 before Coleman's and Francovich's claims. Of course, 'quite sensitive documents' would eventually morph into a suitcase of contraband as part of a covert operation that had went horribly awry. But, it is interesting that so early into the investigation, this theory is raisng it's ugly head, and clearly it causes enough disquiet to merit Johnson's report to be enquired further by senior security members.

The on-going 'it wusnae us' between the the UK at Heathrow and the Germans at Frankfurt is rumbling on...

The Guardian (London)

March 18, 1989

Germans reject Lockerbie link

BYLINE: By ANNA TOMFORDE

LENGTH: 280 words

DATELINE: BONN

Investigations are being vigorously pursued into a German connection to the Lockerbie air disaster but so far there is no evidence linking two suspected Palestinian radicals held in West Germany to the attack.

'There are many threads of speculation and possible reasons for a link but so far we have no evidence whatsoever,' said Mr Alexander Prechtel, spokesman for the chief public prosecutor's office in Bonn.

He was referring to the arrest last October of two self-confessed members of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC). During a raid on the suspected cell, police confiscated large quantities of arms, including a grenade launcher and plastic explosives.

Police also found a Toshiba radio cassette recorder containing a barometric timing device. But Mr Prechtel said the recorder thought to have been used in the Pan Am attack was a different type.

One of those in custody, Mr Hafez Kassem Dalkamouni, told investigators that he was responsible for PFLP finances, and had nothing to do with 'operational measures'. The other claimed to be his aide.

The two men were held on suspicion of possessing explosives, planning a conspiracy and carrying out two bomnb attacks on trains transporting US servicemen.

Mr Prechtel said outright claims that the Lockerbie bomb was smuggled aboard at Frankfurt were damaging German-British co-operation.

An Interior Ministry spokesman said that last November the West German police briefed international security experts about the radio cassette bomb, alerted all airlines, including Pan Am, and circulated photographs and a description of the detonating mechanism.

Still no indication, or slightest hint, that the BKA now have the Erac printout and have been in contact with Malta. Not that they'd necessarily release any direct evidence to the public, but possibly anyone would expect a far more aimable and concerted effort to make it clear there was a lead being followed that suggested neither Frankfurt or Heathrow were the origination for the device entering the system.
 
I did have a minor point about bag positioning and/or the origins of luggage in AVE4041. All pieces of the primary case frame that were found,strangely, were found sequentially (by numbers: PT/22, PT/23, PT/24, PT/25) in different pieces of luggage. PT/22 is from the bottom of the suitcase (hinge end) and PT/23 and 24 are from the top (latch end). (PT/25 is non-descript). [qimg]http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/chainsawmoth/127-911/Suitcase_Fragments_watermark.jpg[/qimg]

The one from the bottom side (two pieces actually, PT/22 a and b) wound up inside Sophie Hudson's purple holdall, PH/137. Ms. Hudson was a Heathrow-originating passenger. That is, non-interline, non-PA103A.

I'll let anyone else puzzle over or discuss what exactly that can tell us about what happened.

Okay, now that I have another few minutes, I'll explain that some more. Feraday and Hayes final report, 1990, section 4.2 explains:

Twenty-four additional items of luggage, including softshell and hardshell suitcases, suitbags, and holdalls have been individually identified by their characteristic explosion damage as having been in relatively close proximity to the IED at the moment of its detonation. All of these items are considered to have been positioned within luggage container AVE 4041 PA at the time of the explosion, because of the known short range blast effects of high performance explosives coupled with the observed very localised damage to AVE 4041 PA itself.

Therefore, a piece of luggage that had burnt tears in it, two fragments of the IED suitcase inside, was not included in this section at all. Because it wasn't in that container? No, because as Feraday said under questioning in 2000:
I came to the conclusion that I couldn't myself put it in the explosion – necessarily in the explosion-damaged baggage. I'm not saying it isn't, but I couldn't convince myself. And I still can't. And for that reason, I had a word with Hayes, and we agreed to put it in the second section.
That one is headed "other damaged luggage" - may have been in 4041 from the damage, but probably wasn't directly blast-damaged. Feraday says he thinks these bits of metal were found in some other luggage, bagged and tagged as "found in luggage," and put into this other bag, that happened to have burnt tears clear into it.

Now... this PH/137 was London origin baggage - hadn't left the ground yet. Officially all contents of AVE 4041 had already flown, either on PA 103A or on another flight. So is the official take on that wrong, and Ms. Hudson's and perhaps other items originating from the ground were introduced? It's intriguiing possibility.

The other possibility is that the blast damage went into the container next door. In fact, it must have, after blasting the tarp door away, spattering and fracturing the back wall of AVN 7511 PA, and causing at least one five-inch hole clear into it.

Another item covered in section 4.3 had a hole in it, and a piece of the container 4041 embedded in the heel of a shoe. This one at least was probably in the next container over.

The simple thing, I would think, would be to re-assess the damage as going a bit past the prime container. But for some reason, Feraday and Hayes insist that these were damaged by something other than the explosion.

Sorry, I know I've been on this forensic oooh I'm a smart guy tangent for too long. There are other good points already open I'll come back to tomorrow. No letter/numbers in the next post at all if I can help it.
:blush:
 
As if to prod me, Vincent Cannistraro popped up on Radio 2 this morning offering his take on the Russians arrested in the US yesterday, accused of spying. I'm hoping to have a further browse around some of those old articles again this afternoon - I'll see if I can narrow the search to The Herald Rolfe, and see what turns up - hopefully dropping a few more clues about a timeline of the investigation path taken.

Here's an article dealing with Radio Forth's David Johnson, who's interviewed in Maltese Double Cross, and his impromptu meeting with security officials.



So, contrary to most opinions, only 6 weeks after the event, the theory that would later become the Aviv 'bag-switch' theory was nascent 2 years before Aviv and 5 before Coleman's and Francovich's claims. Of course, 'quite sensitive documents' would eventually morph into a suitcase of contraband as part of a covert operation that had went horribly awry. But, it is interesting that so early into the investigation, this theory is raisng it's ugly head, and clearly it causes enough disquiet to merit Johnson's report to be enquired further by senior security members.

The on-going 'it wusnae us' between the the UK at Heathrow and the Germans at Frankfurt is rumbling on...

Whoa. Put that way, this is highly interesting. It's not that it holds any weight, but that it doesn't. The basic MO of the "drug swap theory" dropped on about Feb 3, somehow, and given high profile with police demands, no less. And on about that same day, Vincent Cannistraro, who just popped up today, you say, seems to have the media repeating as "investigators beilieve" that Libyans (at frankfurt) are responsible.

Somehow, on about the same day, we were given mutant glimpses of the future CIA path the world would be dragged down - I see a machine, with wheels of all sizes, pipes and whistles and steam, rolling down a track with two paint brushes working to the left and the right. The right brush smears thick brown paint across the genuine PFLP-GC clues, and the left drags a sparkling white streak across Libyan clues. A long arm-like mechanism at the front speedily erects these clues off to the left just ahead of the machine.

And it almost seems like this machine was running - at least in an early spurt - on Feb 3 1989, only about six weeks after the bombing. This all makes too much sense.
 
As if to prod me, Vincent Cannistraro popped up on Radio 2 this morning offering his take on the Russians arrested in the US yesterday, accused of spying. I'm hoping to have a further browse around some of those old articles again this afternoon - I'll see if I can narrow the search to The Herald Rolfe, and see what turns up - hopefully dropping a few more clues about a timeline of the investigation path taken.

Here's an article dealing with Radio Forth's David Johnson, who's interviewed in Maltese Double Cross, and his impromptu meeting with security officials.

So, contrary to most opinions, only 6 weeks after the event, the theory that would later become the Aviv 'bag-switch' theory was nascent 2 years before Aviv and 5 before Coleman's and Francovich's claims. Of course, 'quite sensitive documents' would eventually morph into a suitcase of contraband as part of a covert operation that had went horribly awry. But, it is interesting that so early into the investigation, this theory is raisng it's ugly head, and clearly it causes enough disquiet to merit Johnson's report to be enquired further by senior security members.


I think Aviv was sooner than two years after the event, wasn't he? And his theory was that Khalid Jafaar's suitcase of heroin had been switched for the bomb, nothing to do with US agents. Also, the agents seem to have interlined into Heathrow from Larnaca - they weren't on PA103A. Or the one's we've been talking about weren't. Someone did suggest a bag-switch at Frankfurt very early on though - might have been Jones.

I think the sensitive documents might have been real though, given all the interest there seems to have been in McKee's luggage. I think Johnson might have hit on a couple of raw nerves so far as theoretical shenanigans are concerned, but subsequent events suggest he wasn't on the nail as regards the method of introduction.

The on-going 'it wusnae us' between the the UK at Heathrow and the Germans at Frankfurt is rumbling on...

Still no indication, or slightest hint, that the BKA now have the Erac printout and have been in contact with Malta. Not that they'd necessarily release any direct evidence to the public, but possibly anyone would expect a far more aimable and concerted effort to make it clear there was a lead being followed that suggested neither Frankfurt or Heathrow were the origination for the device entering the system.


I don't know that we can be so sure about that. If Frankfurt were absolutely determined to deny responsibility, they might well have wanted to conceal the implications of tray B8849, if they'd seen it and it's not a fabrication.

The luggage transfers between KM180 and PA103A, and between PA103A and PA103 were very different. The Heathrow transfer was a fast plane-switch of luggage already assumed to have been screened at Frankfurt, and with no opportunity for anything to be interfered with during the transfer. Nobody was expecting Heathrow to screen the PA103A luggage for bombs. So if it was in that batch, Heathrow wasn't going to get the blame. However the Frankfurt transfer was through the heart of the airport and the main baggage transfer system, and the luggage was most certainly supposed to be screened. That's what Maier was for. He x-rayed everything that went on to that flight. So if one of these bags was the bomb, Frankfurt might still be regarded as blameworthy.

Frankfurt did take the rap in the end of course. It was the shambolic security at Frankfurt that got Pan Am into the civil action they lost and which bankrupted the company. However, because the airline ran its own security at Frankfurt (Alert was a subsidiary of PA), the airport iself seems to have got off the hook.

It's possible, though, that Frankfurt was extremely keen not to get the blame even at one remove like that. So if the printout is on the level, and the Frankfurt BKA spotted it at the time, they may have decided to rely on the watertight Luqa evidence to "assume" (conveniently) that B8849 was irrelevant, so providing a reason for just not showing it to anyone....

I don't think that's an excuse, and I don't even think it's particularly plausible. I merely point it out as a possible motivation for keeping schtumm about the printout and continuing to insist that a 38-minute explosion must mean a Heathrow introduction.

And while we're at it, the Helsinki activation doesn't fly for a barometrc trigger, any more than Frankfurt or Malta. There's a lot of garbled reporting and false assumptions going on near the beginning, and I don't think we can take too much out of it. I'm mainly saying the silence from Frankfurt about the printout doesn't to me completely prove they didn't have it.

Rolfe.
 
The other possibility is that the blast damage went into the container next door. In fact, it must have, after blasting the tarp door away, spattering and fracturing the back wall of AVN 7511 PA, and causing at least one five-inch hole clear into it.

Another item covered in section 4.3 had a hole in it, and a piece of the container 4041 embedded in the heel of a shoe. This one at least was probably in the next container over.

The simple thing, I would think, would be to re-assess the damage as going a bit past the prime container. But for some reason, Feraday and Hayes insist that these were damaged by something other than the explosion.


I remember that part now. You know, I don't think either Feraday or Hayes is all that bright. The evidence gives some flavour of just how much guess-work was involved in figuring out what was where. They trid to build up a picture, and did it fit with the findings? But some awkward findings might get "reassigned".

I agree, if the other damaged container had Heathrow baggage, which it must have had, it's hardly a stretch to postulate that a few Heathrow bags were also damaged. Why didn't they want to acknowledge that?

Dimwits.

Rolfe.
 
Indeed, Aviv's claims emerged within a year. And the secret documents bag from Helsinki is clearly not the same as a CIA drugs bag from Frankfurt. But they both share in common embarrassing top-secret systems subverted by PFLP-GC terrorists to insert a bomb other than the kind they were known to make. Both share a necessary timer and thus negation of the known Khreesat bomb clues pointing to heathrow. They both appeal to previous non-london warning cities (The Helsinki warning specified Frankfurt). One version emerged alongside Cannistraro's (??) Libyan blame prelude, and the other emerged, again, after a cup of coffee and and an Interfor "investigation."

Rolfe said:
Basically. Unless there's some reason that's a clue, but that's one I don't feel like following. There's just way too many weird things here.
 
Sorry to jump back onto this matter when we're concentrating on Gauci at the mo, but I'd thought I'd better put this here before I forget.

This is taken from The Sunday Times, Dec 17 1989. David Leppard and Nick Rufford.

The Sunday Times said:
[...] The tests showed that the Samsonite suitcase had been placed on pallet number AVE4041 at station 14L, on the port side of the fuselage. That pallet had contained luggage from Frankfurt along with luggage 'interlined' from other flights into Heathrow from other airports, such as Cyprus and Paris.

I think that's an indication that was speculated earlier that at least some of the luggage on AVE4041 appears to have been that of the CIA agents who were on 103.

Two pieces of which were later found had not been loaded.
 
I think we decided it was one piece, that Baz had made a misake? He's getting it from Leppard, who is probably right but maybe Caustic Logic (who has Leppard's book) can investigate how well sourced that is.

OK, I see this is Leppards all the way down....

The Cyprus (Larnaca) bit is definitely McKie and I think a couple of others. I'm not sure who came from Paris. This should have been investigated in minute detail, but it's hard to get a handle on it. Maybe I need to buy Leppard's book. Which takes the contrary line from his 1989 Sunday Times articles, apparently.

So, you can't investigate Frankfurt because all the records vanished. There are credible rumours of an officially sanctioned drug courier route passing through that airport and involving Pan Am 103. There's bugger-all information about interline passengers joining PA103 at Heathrow, despite clear suspicions that a bag in that category may have contained the bomb. These passengers included a surprisingly large number of US security force officials, including CIA and/or DIA personnel.

Anybody seeing a pattern here?

Rolfe.
 
Baz had O'Neill leaving two bags bahind, citing Leppard, but the actual citation was just one. Back a page or so. If there was a second bag, it would be from someone else. I'd be interested to hear more if so.

These threads are about gathering info,so feel freetobump the right one whenever.Otherwise you might forgetand it will never be added.Sorry I'm less involved here. Different stuff, trying to engage Americans at USA Today and other commentary places.
 
Baz agreed in Robert Black's blog comments that he made a mistake and it was only one bag.

Rolfe.
 
These threads are about gathering info,so feel freetobump the right one whenever.Otherwise you might forgetand it will never be added.Sorry I'm less involved here. Different stuff, trying to engage Americans at USA Today and other commentary places.


Tell them to stop listening to Frank Duggan. He's an embarrassment.



Rolfe.
 
Is there any correlation between the assertion made earlier in this thread (and a few other sources, namely poster Baz's claims) that US State Dept official, Daniel O'Connor's bag(s) were not loaded onto Pan Am 103 at Heathrow, and were found after the crash in a Heathrow baggage room, the reports that AVE4041 and the bags initially loaded by Bedford, would have likely to have been belonging to CIA agents who had travelled via Cyprus, and the unsettling statement given by PC Mary Boylan?

Mary Boylan said:
"Towards the latter part of 1999, I was asked to attend at Dumfries Police Station, to give a statement to the Procurator Fiscal regarding my duties at Lockerbie. Almost eleven years had elapsed since the disaster, so I phoned 'F' Divisional HQ at Livingston Police Station to request my notebook to refresh my memory. I was told that someone would be in touch with me, and after a few days I was informed that my notebook could not be found. Shortly after this I read in a Scottish broadsheet that Lothian and Borders Police notebooks had been destroyed."
[...]

"A short time later, while searching in field F72"— this happened on 28 December 1988 — "I recovered the handle and rim of a brown coloured suitcase (Production Label No. unknown to me). This was entered in my notebook. PC Forrest corroborated the find and signed my notebook and production label."

"Towards the latter part of 1999 . . . On attendance at Dumfries Police Station I was asked to describe some of the debris from memory. I was then shown the suitcase rim with handle I had found and was asked to identify it, which I did. The Production Label with my signature and that of PC Forrest, and of others whom I did not know, was still attached. A photograph was then shown to me of the said suitcase rim I had found, plus other pieces of the suitcase material. I recognised the rim but not the material. I asked the Fiscal about the significance of the suitcase and he said he could not tell me. What he did say was that the owner of said suitcase was a Joseph Patrick Curry and that I would be hearing and reading a lot about him at the time of the trial."

So, aside from the very serious allegation, which AFAIK has never been refuted, about the destroying of police log books relating to the discovery and information on evidence recovered, there appears to be have been an early suggestion, once again, that the bomb had been inserted into the system by using someone else's luggage who did actually travel on 103 as oppose to the introduction of an unaccompanied bag? And the suggestion is one of the bags that was assigned to one of the US officials travelling on 103 was either planted with the bomb device or substituted for a identical bag containing the device.

And, not only that, but once again, there is a suggestion that evidence that had been originally collected from the scene in the days and weeks subsequent to the fall of 103, was not as latterly presented to the witness who had made the initial discovery.

  1. Toshiba Manual, recovered "almost intact", and presented as shredded.
  2. Blue Babygro, recovered in one piece, and presented as threads of cloth with just the label visible.
  3. Remnants of suitcase not recognised when latterly presented to be signed for

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/1997/jul/23/lockerbie
 

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