Merged Lockerbie bomber alive after 9 months

I've been a member of the SNP for pushing 20 years. I know it's been general opinion Megrahi didn't do it, in party circles. But now we're the government, we're doing it too. Is this just about protecting the reputation of the Scottish criminal justice system? Sorry, stable door, horse, bolted. Why are Kenny MacAskill and Nicola Sturgeon Murrell now covering up with the rest of them?

Rolfe.

I forgot to say that I'm sure this is the part that frustrates you the most. Welcome to the world of power changing people.

And FWIW, right now is not the time to slap the U.S. with any subtleties like doubt about Megrahi's guilt. It's time to play real nice and roll over for the Senators, tail tucked in submission. I don't know. But people here really wouldn't get it. One more reason fury. "Now them Scots are trying to cover themselves saying the guy is INNOCENT?" I'm REALLY going to quit Scotch whiskey now, right after this last shot...

Anyway, things are what they are. Personal anger is only useful if it motivates you. You certainly can't physically choke the problem away, so any adrenaline pumping to your hands is a waste. Etc. deep breaths... I only say that cause I am otherwise encouraging anger because !!11!! I AHTE PEOPLE!!!1111!

okay, better...
 
It's time to play real nice and roll over for the Senators, tail tucked in submission.


I fervently and sincerely hope this never happens. Arrogant, ignorant, loudmouthed morons.

How would the USA like it if Britain or Scotland demanded their senior government ministers show up and explain themselves like naughty schoolboys regarding something which was entirely their own jurisdiction?

This is absolutely the time to point out that the conviction was a complete farce, when people are listening.

Rolfe.
 
The "Lockerbie bomber" was released because he wasn't really the Lockerbie bomber - a fact known by the elites of Scotland, England, USA and Libya and the prostate cancer was a convenient way to lay the whole issue to rest.

Allegations about BP are just a convenient scape-goat to direct anger to. The corruption is not in BP, it is in the ruling elite (of which BP is a minor branch).

Nothing is served by keeping a elderly sanctions busting trader in prison.
 
Hey, he's 58! This is "elderly" to you?

"Ruling elites", sigh. It's one way of putting it though. Just a way that's going to get most sane people in the western hemisphere to tune you out as a CT nut....

I don't know how many of these people currently shouting about it actually realise he didn't do it. I think some of them simply haven't looked at the evidence and go with "the court convicted him" without making any further enquiry. I think others have looked at the evidence and realise the appeal would have been successful (barring the judges being nobbled), but have decided he's really guilty in spite of the lack of evidence.

This last was what was being promoted by Cannistraro. His line is that the airport ground staff and authorities on (devoutly Christian, western) Malta were all suborned by the Libyans to cover up the evidence, and that not a single person slipped up or repented in over 20 years, despite intensive interviewing, phone taps and a level of scrutiny that was beyond intrusive. Now there's a CT if you like....

My suspicion is that the decision-makers, who tend to be busy people, are being told exactly that by the spooks - even though the evidence is non-existent, he did it anyway, trust us. There's an enormous amount that says that simply isn't so, from the fact that the plan as proposed by the authorities is insane and would only have worked by a pure fluke, to the fact that there's a shedload of evidence pointing elsewhere.

Nevertheless, it can sound persuasive. And if you contemplate the consequences of allowing Megrahi to be acquitted, then it's very attractive to try to prevent that happening. Acquitting him means admitting you got the wrong guy, that you have no idea who murdered 270 people, that each of the victims' families was paid £6 million by Gadaffi on false pretences, and we now have to open a cold case and start investigating all over again. Costing how many millions, in very tight financial times.

I think it's pernicious. To convict someone, then block an appeal, without sufficient evidence but in the belief that he's guilty anyway, is a violation of all that justice stands for.

Rolfe.
 
Good stuff.

My end: I find out NY Daily News and Newsvine have a forum pane where threads are collected and bumpable, etc. I will single-handedly rule the American forums like we've done here. I'm being given a wide berth already. Here's from a recent discussion (thanks Rolfe for the tips on things I don't personally know or find, it's good to have someone else trustworthy):

It was no mistake. MacAskill says he was guided only by compassion? Well the laws for that say nothing about having to surrender an open appeal. Compassion says nothing about co-considering an old Prisoner Transfer Agreement AND simple compassion at the same time, not specifying which will be the exit for the man just told he'd be dead in 12 weeks. But he did decide to "look at" both options as soon as the prognosis was in. And the PTA required all appeals to be surrendered.

It confused Megrahi so he felt he had to surrender his appeal, which MacAskill tells us isn't true. Who knows what he said in Megrahi's cell in August, off the record. But just after that, the appeal was dropped, and two days later MacAskill announced the "compassionate relese." Same day, Megrahi said

I had most to gain and nothing to lose about the whole truth coming out - until my diagnosis of cancer. […] I have been faced with an appalling choice: to risk dying in prison in the hope that my name is cleared posthumously or to return home still carrying the weight of the guilty verdict, which will never now be lifted.

Think about it a second.

Conspiracy Theory: Did Megrahi's three-month prognosis have anything to do with the fact that his appeal was finally slated to be heard almost exacty three months hence? And that MacAskill used that in a combo of considerations that led to the appeal's surrender? Who benefits from shutting down a process that would have exposed the Scottish justice system, Scottish police, UK forencsicscientists, American FBI and CIA investigators, and others?

So let's investigate bp, huh? Waste more government money? We need to keep up on what matters with them, not go running into this pile of ****.

Okay, that discussion sucks, and I'm sure I killed it young. But the post rocks. It scares people, it must. It has to, or I feel I've got no power at all. :(
NYDN's is apparently justemotive issues being emoted over, mostly violent,tragic, morbid, sexual, or some combo. Swearing is alolowed, horrendous idiocy prevails. Newsvine has potential. One upright poster there actually asked me for evidence, and after a gentle nudge, actually e-mailed me to say he was looking at it (Gauci's ID, emph. on date). No report yet, but he seems reasonable, so it'll be a success.

Sorry, I know cross-forum whatnot... I'll just alert on anything educationally relevant to the other stuff. Okay, goodnight.
 
It's three years since I started that first thread in CT, mostly saying, "Look, most of the serious journalists say this guy didn't do it and there were some shenanigans involved, does anyone know what that was all about?"

That was prompted by the issuing of the SCCRC report on the case, and the granting of leave to appeal. At that time and in the months following there was a lot of media attention, all relating to the flaws in the evidence, Tony Gauci having been bribed (which was common knowledge before the details were published last September), and the refusal to release the document sought by the defence that would have allegedly harmed Britain's relations with a "friendly power" if it saw the light of day.

Every morning, the case was in the news. And every morning, the subject was the evidence, and the challenging of the evidence, and the possibility that in fact Megrahi had been wrongly convicted. And it's kind of been going on ever since. Why hasn't the appeal come to court yet, it's been five years? Oh noes, Megrahi has a fatal cancer! Why are they still delaying the appeal? Ah, the appeal has started, hey look how all that evidence is starting to unravel! Oh dear, one of the judges is ill, so they've called a six-month adjournment. Is that fair, when the appelant is terminally ill?

Then, during the adjournment, it looks very much as if Megrahi has been leaned on to withdraw his appeal. He says as much himself, first by way of a statement from his lawyer. And the minute that's done, hey presto! The appeal is airbrushed from history. If it's mentioned, then he withdrew it of his own free will, and by doing so he has acknowledged his guilt! It's being treated like a confession by some people.

Where are all these journalists who were writing about the bribery of Gauci and the iniquity of the PIIC on the secret document, and all the rest of the problems, back in 2007 and 2008? Somehow it's just not flavour of the month any more.

Rolfe.
 
My point exactly. I cannot fathom Hillary and Obama knowing nothing about the solidity of the conviction. Nobody over there, who should be taken seriously, ever said to a US colleague, "It's a crappy conviction, and he almost certainly didn't do it."???

Or the colleague, or whoever above they reported to, just thought, "Eh, they're exaggerating." Or "Eh, we can't change things now."?

Conspiracy comes easy, but not this easy.


This is a triumph of hope over experience, however, can you not understand the possibility that neither your government nor my government has any interest in acknowledging the crappiness of this conviction?

I already explained to you that the US Department of Justice was a major player in securing that crappy conviction, and that they also provided the $3 million paid to the Gauci brothers under the Rewards for Justice scheme. Why would they suddenly want to upset that applecart now?

Do you think there's anyone at all in a position of authority in either Britain or the USA who wants to acknowledge that they have no freaking idea who bombed that airliner, and start all over again with a cold case of 270 murders to investigate?

Rolfe.
 
I'm not sure why Cameron and Obama are even discussing the case publicly. Cameron has no jurisdiction in Scottish cases and the Conservative party is a minor player in Scottish politics. Obama made his representations at the time and they were duly considered.

Moreover, neither Obama or Cameron have any intention of retrieving Megrahi. While BP may have an interest in Libyan oil, so do Exxon and a host of other US oil companies. While Megrahi was being released, US senators were in Libya that very week signing an oil deal (including Republican ones). If one were to try to determine who would gain if he were released there would be one hell of a list. It seems everyone wants to take a cut and dump all the blame on the Scots and BP.

I can't say people in Scotland are overly vexed over this issue though. More bemused at Cameron and Milliband's posturing than anything.
 
So much for the New Politics: Cameron grandstanding, playing up to the American politicians is as embarrassing as Gordon Brown following Obama round like a love-sick puppy*.

* - I don't necessarily believe this version of events last year, but it sounds too good not to repeat.
 
Interesting to see what will happen next May's Scottish Parliament elections; the Tories currently have 16 MSPs.

I think it would be hard for them to get less - about 15% seems to be their bedrock and PR ensures they get a similar amount in seats. I can't see them get more mind you. They performed very badly in the election just passed. Their one solitary MP is having enough problems with alleged financial mis-doings than raising the standard.
 
I'm not sure why Cameron and Obama are even discussing the case publicly. Cameron has no jurisdiction in Scottish cases and the Conservative party is a minor player in Scottish politics. Obama made his representations at the time and they were duly considered.

Probably for the same reason Obama gets flak for the Arizona immigration law: unless Arizona (or Scotland) start building their own embassies and so forth, the British PM and the U.S. president will be seen as the international "representatives" of those entities.

As in most democratic nations, the national executive is far from all-powerful, but will still get blamed as if he is ;)
 
It's difficult to know. They're obviously doing it to bash the SNP. Who knows if it will work.

Remember last August, there was deathly silence from Westminster (apart from the helpful hint of releasing Biggs a fortnight previously) until Kenny made his announcement, then once Megrahi was safely away, they all laid into him. (Of course his speech was largely sanctimonious twaddle, so they had a point.) I was quite touched by Megrahi's welcome at Tripoli, and glad the Libyans were waving our flag rather than burning it - of course nobody in that crowd thought he'd done it. But then people started taking that the wrong way.

Since then, the appeal has been airbrushed from history. Who now remembers the spring of 2009 when that conviction was unravelling before our eyes? But nobody in any position of authority wants to acknowledge that Megrahi was probably about to be acquitted, and would have been by now but for agreeing to give up the appeal.

So if everyone from Miliband to Obama is lining up to lambast the SNP for releasing "the biggest mass-murderer in Scottish history", then mud tends to stick. Especially when Kenny just goes right on being sanctimonious.

Maybe after all this fuss dies down we'll get some articles looking at the appallingly weak evidence they brought that conviction on, but they aren't doing it now.

Rolfe.
 
All we need are Patton And Monty going at each other to make this a classic US/UK dust up.
 
Heard in a restaurant yesterday:

Lady: So now it turns out BP got the Pan-Am 103 murderer freed.
Man: If they'd just'd executed him like we would have that could never have happened.
Lady: Maybe if we start putting those BP bastards on death row here things might be even.
 
Watching the coverage of Cameron here in the States was just painful. News orgs were bragging about asking him "tough questions", and he was brown nosing like... Well, a British PM :p .

Not a word on the validity of his conviction. Hell, I've only heard two passing mentions of the Scottish government.
 
Watching the coverage from the USA was cringe-worthy. It reminded Scotland of just how much credence should be put on Cameron's recent promises to treat Scotland with respect, and to deal respectfully with the Scottish government. He was doing it for party-political advantage of course, but it remains to be seen how that will work out for him.

I note that Robert Black has collected a number of the best press articles about the issue on his blog. It seems that thoughtful commentators are beginning to work a few things out. It's worth a read.

http://lockerbiecase.blogspot.com/2010_07_01_archive.html

Front-page newspaper headlines today are certainly about something completely different - a mortgage scandal involving the Clydesdale Bank gets a full-page splash. However, Lockerbie is certainly up there, with a side-bar pointer to articles taking up most of page 3, and a comment article.

The comment column makes some pertinent points.

Brian Currie said:
Comments by the hitherto unknown backbencher Daniel Kawczynski on the decision to release the man convicted of the Lockerbie bombing suggest that the Scottish justice system and those in charge of it are somehow answerable to Westminster. Kawczynski was educated at Stirling University but perhaps he doesn’t realise the extent of the Scottish Government’s authority and maybe he is unaware that Scotland has its own judicial system.

But as chair of Westminster’s all-party committee on Libya he should know there have been two inquiries into the decision by Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill to release Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi on compassionate grounds.

A Scottish Parliament inquiry and another by Westminster’s Scottish Affairs Select Committee were clear in their conclusions, yet Kawczynski has written to David Cameron asking for Scottish Ministers to be held to account. Since Cameron can’t do this, perhaps he’s just trying to catch the PM’s eye in the hope of promotion.

It seems odd that a man who called for Megrahi to be used as a foreign policy bargaining chip chairs a committee whose aim is to promote and understand the culture, history and politics of Libya and engage in relations between that country’s legislature and the UK’s.


He's right of course. There was some self-righteous posturing from Labour and Conservative politicians at the time, and enquiries were conducted. While the complainers didn't like it, they had to admit everything was done by the book. Kawczynski is being particularly hypocritical, because in 2007-09 he was among the forefront of the Westminster politicians trying to force the Scottish government to use Megrahi to advance political/commercial interests in the Middle East, which the Scottish government refused to do.

The correspondent also has some harsh words about US hypocrisy.

The Senators should surely grasp the concept of devolved powers and be able to distinguish between Prisoner Transfer Agreements between Westminster and Libya and the compassionate grounds on which the Scottish Government’s Justice Secretary based his decision.

With BP a dirty word in the States after the catastrophic Gulf of Mexico oil spill there is an element of playing to the gallery. Many Americans have conveniently forgotten that the company is as much American as British and that jobs, and investments, in the US are in jeopardy if the company is mortally damaged.

Or perhaps they would just like some of the American energy companies, including Exxon Mobil and Chevron, which have forged links with Colonel Gaddafi’s regime, capitalise on BP’s misfortune.

More than 50 US companies are reported to have signed contracts with Libya compared to four from the UK and the smell coming from the States isn’t just oil pollution – it’s the reek of hypocrisy.


These guys operate in a Federal system, and as politicians should be able to distinguish between diiffreent jurisdictions and different legal processes. But all we hear about is what they imagine happened, which is so wide of the mark as to be on another planet. It does look like simple posturing, combined with a desire to draw attention away from US commercial involvement with Libya.

There are also nine readers' letters taking up the bulk of the correspondence column. You can read them for yourselves, but I'll summarise the points made.
  • Doubts expressed as to the conviction on "flimsy evidence", comparing Megrahi's sentence to the medal given to the captain of the Vincennes, and condemnation of the bandwagon of politicians looking for personal advantage out of the affair.
  • A correspondent whose wife was given three months to live, but who survived for 13 months, asking what makes the American politicians and David Miliband cancer experts.
  • Support for the compassionate release system in general and in this case, and telling US and Westminster politicans to keep out of it.
  • This letter also mentions the Vincennes incident, but states that the Lockerbie bombing was in fact revenge for this "barbaric act". Again, the medal given to the captain is highlighted.
  • This letter majors on the appeal, and the six grounds for believing that Megrahi's conviction was a miscarriage of justice. Mentions Hans Kochler's reports, and that political and legal figures don't want this aired in a court of law.
  • Calls for the Scottish government to summon Miliband, Clinton and the four senators to Holyrood to answer for their allegations, commenting that such a summons is just as valid in international law.
  • "I am fed up with the US assumption that it has the right to interfere with and dictate to the rest of the world." The writer calls for Scots to rally behind the "honourable man who is in charge of justice in this country."
  • Points out that British citizens were killed at Lockerbie just as US citizens were, and that both US and British citizens were also killed in the Twin Towers. "I wonder if the US would be happy if the UK called for an investigation into the way the process of law had been handled and started asked searching questions about US intelligence being caught sleeping in both cases."
  • "Megrahi [....] will certainly die as a result of his affliction and it would have been terrible if, lacking compassion, we had allowed that to happen in a Scottish jail."
That is nine out of nine supporting the decision to release Megrahi. Most are exceedingly displeased by the behaviour of both the US and UK politicians. In addition, three of the letters expressed doubts about Megrahi's guilt (one in fact completely denied his guilt). You may remember that in another thread last August, I linked to similar collections of readers' letters with a rather similar spread of opinion.

Caustic Logic, the next time you see someone on a US forum carrying on about how ordinary Scots all deplore Megrahi's release, that would be a good page to link them to.

Rolfe.
 
Just saw this on the BBc and its got me hopping mad:

"Ms Gillibrand said it was clear a full investigation into the release was still needed.

"This is about how we fight terrorism. We cannot have a convicted terrorist be told that he had three months to live and released and sitting in the lap of luxury for up to 10 years," she said.

"That is not justice served and, when we are trying to be able to be effective in fighting terrorism worldwide as allies, we cannot tolerate a convicted terrorist going free on the basis of evidence that may well have been fraudulent."

Senator Chuck Schumer, also from New York, said there was "too much suspicion to brush this aside".

"The only way to restore the integrity of what happened and to continue the integrity of the British government is to do a full and complete investigation," he said."

I'll tell you what MS Gillibrand and Chuck, when the wanted, murdering IRA scumbags that are currently living in the lap of luxury in your own back yards with the collusion of your Politician pals get handed back to us, then come and lecture my country about the integrity of Government and justice served.

And Cameron should be telling Obama this!!
 
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The affair also got top billing on the radio this morning. Kenny MacAskill was grilled for ten minutes, live, just after 8am. Shorn of his rather pomopus delivery, the point he made was that in law (and remember he is a lawyer by profession) he had almost no discretion in the matter. His role was to scrutinise the reports from the various bodies (prison medical service, parole board and so on) to determine if the criteria for compassionate release had been met. Given that they had, and that these different authorities were all recommending granting compassionate release, it was then his job to do it, and then come on the radio and take the flak.

He also pointed out that the prognosis was based on the prisoner remaining in a Scottish jail. A number of factors can influence life expectancy in cancer cases, and prisoners in jail may simply turn their faces to the wall and give up. Being reunited with family in a home setting, and being given a further round of chemotherapy, can make a lot of difference. As he said, his information was, necessarily, based on Megrahi remaining in prison, and since that didn't happen, we're only speculating.

He was asked whether he would release Peter Tobin (a serial killer currently in jail in Scotland) in the same circumstances. He answered that each case was considered on its individual merits and he didn't want to get into hypotheticals, but that the severity of the crime wasn't in itself an issue. What was an issue was public safety, and the possibility of any continuing risk to public safety was one of the factors considered by the prison authorities in making their recommendations to him.

It was an extremely convincing performance. The fact is, he has the documentation to back it up, which has already been scrutinised as part of the Scottish parliamentary inquiry into the release, and it was all in order. He mentioned that there were some documents from the Westminster government that were refused permission to release at that time, and he called on these to be released as well in the interests of full transparency.

He pointed out, as others have also mentioned, that no prisoner who met the criteria for compassionate release in Scotland has ever been denied it, by SNP, Labour, LibDem or Conservative politicians. His job was to satisfy himself that the criteria had all been met, and then follow precedent. He didn't elaborate, but it has been suggested elsewhere that Megrahi could have appealled to the European Court of Human Rights if he'd been treated in a discriminatory manner in this respect.

He almost persuaded me he was playing a straight bat all the way.

The elephant in the room was the appeal. Kenny at no point acknowledged that an appeal was in progress, and that the SCCRC had reported the case as a possible miscarriage of justice, thus he might in fact have been freeing an innocent man. That's par for the course. Similarly, the interviewer at no point asked Kenny why he had put pressure on Megrahi to withdraw the appeal. Of course Kenny will say he didn't, but Megrahi and his lawyers have stated several times that he did, and I've never heard Kenny confronted with that. It would be a particularly interesting point to make now, because if the appeal had not been withdrawn, it could well have been concluded by now, and the conviction quashed.

And nobody mentioned Ronnie Biggs either, funnily enough.

Later, as I was driving to work, a phone-in started on the subject. The first thing I heard was someone phoning in to talk about the appeal, saying that the public deserved this case to be fully examined not just the defendant. The six points mentioned by the SCCRC were brought up, as was the US DoJ bribe paid to Gauci (and the holidays in Scotland given to him during the case).

Next up was Martin Cadman, whose son died at Lockerbie. He pointed out that the majority of the UK families have never believed Megrahi had anything to do with it, and questioned what was going on in the USA that none of the US families seemed to have any idea of the issues. He is convinced from personal exprience that there is a large US and UK government cover-up surrounding Lockerbie.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the coming days and weeks.

Rolfe.
 

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