Merged Lockerbie bomber alive after 9 months

I thought the BP question is separate enough, and easy enough, to have a stand-alone thread. The very question people ask is the title, thirst post sets up the question - did BP cause Megrahi's release? Second one explains why any connection is indirect at best, links back to this thread on the actual decision. Thread closed as soon as it's established. That'd be best.

Sorry little time for other response ATM
 
I don't see how you can separate the topics out. Any thread just making the BP link with Megrahi's release is going to attract posters baying for the blood of this mass-murdering scum, and then you're right back at square one.

I'm intrigued by the Herald seeming still to give credence to the possibility that Megrahi's innocence might yet be proved. I thought that had more or less gone by the board with the abandoning of the appeal. It's difficult to see what could be discovered that would be held to prove him innocent without it going back in front of the court, and I don't think it could go back in front of the court now.

Or maybe someone can prove tray B8849 was the suitcase belonging to the Maltese family on their way to spend Christmas at Disneyworld.... I'm not holding my breath.

Rolfe.
 
I don't see how you can separate the topics out.

Linguistically at least. It's a separate question that's being asked widely, but with a proper answer kind of like "no. Now read this thread." Eh, whichever. It was a thought.

And I do realize this will be a passing blip in the end, but it's a chance to squeeze into the discussion every time it flares up. Personally I suspect another, maybe larger wave of disgust come August 20, and then I suspect Megrahi will draw down within a couple weeks of that.

Unless one of the assassination teams currently forming ad hoc in the mid-south (I'm guessing) manages to sneak into Libya and the compound. A lot of well-funded people would love nothing more than for Megrahi to die other than naturally, and right as most people believe he was ABOUT to live for another 20-30 years or whatever, perfect time. The Libyans'd never be able to prove he was ABOUT to die within weeks, and the assassins are folk heroes, whatever their physical fate, for doing what the Scots wouldn't.
 
Hey, the Iranians are asking if BP had a role in "release of a notorious terrorist."
http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=223031

I can't get my computer to link to Tehran Times servers for some reason, so can't read it. I hear they keep tight control. Are the Mullah's repressively blocking me from reading their awesome media?


I got straight in. So presumably they don't know I rather think they did it....

It's just boilerplate agency copy. Although I have to say my irony meter needs a lie down in a quiet room.

Rolfe.
 
Linguistically at least. It's a separate question that's being asked widely, but with a proper answer kind of like "no. Now read this thread." Eh, whichever. It was a thought.

And I do realize this will be a passing blip in the end, but it's a chance to squeeze into the discussion every time it flares up. Personally I suspect another, maybe larger wave of disgust come August 20, and then I suspect Megrahi will draw down within a couple weeks of that.

Unless one of the assassination teams currently forming ad hoc in the mid-south (I'm guessing) manages to sneak into Libya and the compound. A lot of well-funded people would love nothing more than for Megrahi to die other than naturally, and right as most people believe he was ABOUT to live for another 20-30 years or whatever, perfect time. The Libyans'd never be able to prove he was ABOUT to die within weeks, and the assassins are folk heroes, whatever their physical fate, for doing what the Scots wouldn't.


Calm down, dear boy. I think you need a lie down in a quiet room.

Rolfe.
 
In view of the much wailing and gnashing of teeth by a few US senators recently, a press release has just issued by Christine Grahame MSP on the matter of Megrahi, Lockerbie and BP.

There remains legitimate concern about how this case was investigated and prosecuted and also, from the US side, ongoing anger at the decision to release Mr Megrahi.

[..]

The Scottish Government has already said it would co-operate fully with an inquiry if one were set up.

I am now challenging the US Government to do likewise and help establish an international inquiry into the events that led to the bombing of PA103 over Lockerbie and examine all of the facts related to this case.


Er, don't hold your breath on that one Christine. Virtually no one is the US is interested in the slightest never mind the bluster from a few senators.

Christine Grahame Release
 
The amusing thing is that the bluster from the USA has now morphed into an accusation which I think may well be factually true. Did BP lobby Tony Blair to put in place the prisoner transfer agreement with Libya?

Yes, I think it's virtually certain they did. In 2007.

Was Megrahi mentioned by BP at this time? Probably not, because there was no need. While there were weasel words about whether he was included in the agreement or not, he was the only Libyan prisoner in a British jail at the time so it's hard to see what any of that was about if it wasn't about him.

Did that have any bearing on his eventual release in 2009, on quite different grounds? Not exactly, but possibly indirectly. It's likely Blair's successors were still anxious to deliver on the spirit of that agreement, even though the letter of it had turned out to be beyond their gift. So they kept their mouths firmly shut and offered not a single word in criticism of the Scottish government's proposal to release Megrahi under compassionate release, and they may even have smoothed the path a little behind the scenes.

You don't need an official enquiry to work that out though.

I suppose the question is, in today's fevered political climate of hate against BP, is the fact that they felt, in 2007, that returning Megrahi to Libya under Prisoner Release would be helpful to their interests, enough to damn them further?

Given the aforementioned fevered climate, quite possibly I suspect.

Rolfe.
 
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In view of the much wailing and gnashing of teeth by a few US senators recently, a press release has just issued by Christine Grahame MSP on the matter of Megrahi, Lockerbie and BP.

Er, don't hold your breath on that one Christine. Virtually no one is the US is interested in the slightest never mind the bluster from a few senators.

Christine Grahame Release


Leaving that aside, it's an interesting take on all this. Use the publicity generated by the Senators' wittering nonsense as a platform to publicise further the doubts about the conviction, and to call for afurther enquiry.

Every little helps, as they say.

Rolfe.
 
Regrettably, I think that anyone in the US who calls for a new investigation would likely be lumped in with the 9/11 Twoofers.

And sadly, it wouldn't surprise me if the 9/11 Twoofers did jump all over it.
 
Regrettably, I think that anyone in the US who calls for a new investigation would likely be lumped in with the 9/11 Twoofers.

And sadly, it wouldn't surprise me if the 9/11 Twoofers did jump all over it.

as if we would recognize a real "conspiracy" if it bite us in the but :D

:boxedin:
 
Regrettably, I think that anyone in the US who calls for a new investigation would likely be lumped in with the 9/11 Twoofers.

And sadly, it wouldn't surprise me if the 9/11 Twoofers did jump all over it.


The funny thing is, I expected the 9/11 Twoofers to be all over it already. So I had a look round to see what the average Twoofer take on the matter was.

You know what? The standard line seems to be that Megrahi actually did it, and they know this because they're clever enough to see through all the mainstream sources pointing out what a travesty of justice the conviction was. And mainly because David Shayler says Megrahi did it, and he knows because as an ex-spook he's privy to inside information that says they fitted up and framed the right guy.

I agree though, putting forward the concept that an innocent Arab really was framed by the CIA (among others) for a terrorist act involving the crashing of a US passenger airliner could be a bit of a strain on some people's irony meters.

In contrast though, many people in Britain have been calling for a full public enquiry into this since day one. Everyone is used to hearing the demand, and equally used to hearing it rejected. Starting in 1989.

Rolfe.
 
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I realise this article is some months old, but I only came across it today.

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/52972...s-and-megrahi-s-release-libya-gaddafi-rammell

What does Britain have to gain from Megrahi's release?
Megrahi was preparing an appeal against his conviction in the months before his release, which was dropped when his request to be transferred to Libya was granted by MacAskill. His case was based on the unreliability of a key witness and questions around the exact model of the bomb timer and the bomb's complicated journey from Malta to Heathrow.

If Megrahi had won his appeal, it would have seriously undermined the credibility of the Scottish justice system - an email leaked from the Scottish justice department claims important evidence was withheld from the defence team - and lent credence to conspiracy theories surrounding the case, some of which implicate the CIA.


I think I might have posted this other link already.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...erbie-bomber-threatened-Scottish-justice.html

From the start there was a determination to try to prevent this appeal being heard.
It opened but never got off the ground, with stall after stall as each month Megrahi weakened with the cancer that was killing him.
There was rejoicing in the Crown Office in Edinburgh when he was released and the appeal abandoned.
There may well be political manoeuvres behind his release but at the heart was a decision to save the face of the Scottish judiciary - in particular the Crown Prosecution, who would have been shown to have been involved in an abuse of process by non-disclosure of witness statements.


This isn't some sort of crazed "9/11 was an inside job" CT. This is a wholly credible and indeed likely CT.

Rolfe.
 
Ironically, I started posting about Lockerbie on JREF because I thought someone had probably done a debunking job on the Lockerbie CTs in the same way as the 9/11 CTs. However, I could find no reference to the incident on a forum search - although the parallels with 9/11 are really quite striking, right down to "Bush was behind it". I realised after a bit more searching that this was because 9/11 truthers never raise the subject. Then I found that the only references to Lockerbie on truther web sites seemed to be people knowlingly asserting that Megrahi was really guilty, they could see through these mainstream CTs, so they could! Maybe current events will trigger a re-evaluation of this, and we'll see twoofers starting to assert that Lockerbie was a frame-up - could be interesting to watch.

Although it was never uncommon to see Megrahi referred to as "the Lockerbie bomber" in the Scottish press, this was usually followed by letters pointing out that the evidence against him sucked asteroids, and other articles by mainstream journalists going into the issue in more detail. Without quite knowing why, I was aware that "he didn't do it". The main point I recalled from the time of the trial (which was extraordinarily under-reported) was that the original indictment had been against two defendants, and the allegation was that they had acted as a team to introduce the bomb into the baggage system. However, the prosecution had been unable to provide a shred of evidence against one of the accused (Lamin Fhimah), so they had amended the indictment to accuse Abdelbaset Megrahi alone. Except, it was universally acknowledged that it would have been impossible for one person alone to have introduced the suitcase, and no other conspirator was ever identified. Other than that, it was just vague rumours about evidence tampering and mysterious disappearing suitcases.

When I started looking into it further, I wouldn't have been particularly surprised to find it was all as substantial as the Kennedy assassination or Moon Landing conspiracy theories. I vaguely imagined being able to debunk the "he didn't do it" assertions with the panache of Gravy debunking the 9/11 controlled demolition proponents. Alternatively, my favoured line of thought was that it was a classic "we got to get someone for this high-profile crime" fit-up, like the Barry George trial and a number of others. Usually, these miscarriages of justice aren't deliberate on the part of the law enforcement agencies - the usual form is for a suspect with some connection to the incident to be identified, and then every piece of evidence that can be dredged up is somehow shoe-horned into a theory about his guilt.

Well, that's not flying too well either.

The indictment against the two Libyans was issued in 1991. The trial didn't happen until 2000. For nine years we were all told that the CIA had a star witness who would spill the beans.

Vincent Cannistraro said:
Oh I think the evidence available to the Department of Justice in their case, which they're keeping under wraps, is overwhelming, it's conclusive. I think it is mind boggling in the amount of detail that they have. They have also…. they have a live witness for one thing, who would be presented in a court of law. I think there is a tremendous amount of evidence that will allow the prosecutors to present the chronology of the operation from its very inception, and that chronology would start even before Malta, go to Malta and then….. you know….. describe and in almost excruciating detail exactly how they made the bomb, how they secreted it, how they got it on board the aircraft, and I think that's a fairly strong case.


When the case came to court, this star witness was exposed as a lying fantasist who had invented the whole thing in order to retain his $1500 per month retainer as a CIA informant, and it was quite clear the US Department of Justice had known this all along. When this was revealed, that evidence was tossed out.

What was left was beyond tenuous. Nothing at all against Fhimah, who was acquitted. A couple of pieces of evidence remained against Megrahi, and one of these was also quite obviously suspect. Another witness gave evidence which by any normal interpretation pointed to the person who bought the clothes in the bomb suitcase not being Megrahi. However, this evidence was tortured to breaking-point to make it appear to have been Megrahi, and the witness's statement that the man resembled Megrahi was leaped on as "beyond reasonable doubt".

Tony Gauci said:
Not exactly the man I saw in the shop. Ten years ago I saw him, but the man who look a little bit like exactly is [Megrahi].


Does that look like a positive identification to anyone? And that's his best shot. Other attempts said that a different terrorist looked more like the purchaser, or that Megrahi was at least ten years too young. Not to mention that the day he described as making the sale was a day when Megrahi was somewhere else. The shocker isn't just that the judges bought this as a reliable identification, but that the prosecution even brought such evidence in the first place.

These absurdities were the main planks of the interrupted appeal (that, plus something that has always been kept secret), made even less credible by the subsequent revelation that Tony Gauci and his brother were paid $3 million for getting Megrahi convicted.

Once that identification falls, the case falls. There's no doubt about it at all. However, the case is even shakier than that. Digging a bit further reveals pretty undeniable evidence of a massive cover-up at Frankfurt airport in the hours or days following the bombing, which managed to disappear virtually all the day's baggage movement records. Out of this black hole emerged the only other piece of evidence which provided a circumstantial connection between Megrahi and the bombing. I still don't understand what that's all about, and frankly nobody can, because the context required to make sense of the evidence simply vanished. Nevertheless, this tenuous, circumstantial and entirely coincidental evidence was also accepted as "beyond reasonable doubt".

And it goes on. There's one particular piece of evidence that has been the subject of persistent allegations of having been fabricated. The amount of detail available online about the provenance of this thing is indeed excruciating. It's not possible to debunk the accusation of fabrication, and indeed there's a helluva lot of evidence suggesting that's exactly what happened. Not only that, similar scrutiny of a second piece of related evidence reveals quite serious doubts about that too.

This goes beyond the over-zealous cop going hell-for-leather against a superficially plausible suspect. It even goes beyond the deliberate fitting-up of the only person who can be found, in a case where it's politically imperative to get a conviction, any conviction. There's very good reason to suspect a genuine conspiracy here, where inconvenient and embarrassing and damaging revelations are being covered up, and lines of enquiry that might go in an undesirable direction are choked off.

I don't know how far down the rabbit hole it's reasonable to go. However, I've found that you can't just decide Megrahi didn't do it and it was all a mistake, maybe over-zealous policing, and stop there.

It's odd. This forum is full of people just waiting on tenterhooks for an unwary 9/11 truther to venture here and make a remark that can be debunked in boiler-plate fashion. These threads are pages long within hours, when they start. 9/11 debunkers even start threads spontaneously, debunking things that have been debunked to death five years ago. We have a gargantuan thread about the Meredith Kercher murder, that's growing faster than most people can read it.

Lockerbie. A US airliner, a bomb planted by Arab terrorists, passengers perish, people on the ground obliterated, undeniable CIA manipulation of evidence, suspicions of worse, accusations that President Bush insitgated a cover-up, further allegations that enter the realms of LIHOP and even MIHOP.

And there are three people on the forum talking to each other in a handful of threads, completely ignored by the rest of the membership. Until the 20th of each month comes round, and someone else starts an outraged thread that this murdering scum is still alive.

I don't honestly get it. :confused:

Rolfe.
 
Awesome discussion here. This is really just about the polar opposite of the mainstream media discussions over here (in the states). I'd say it's a breath of fresh air, but really the heterogeneity is too much. Sure, there aren't hardly any zombies here, and we've shown how to keep them out or cure the few that stumble in, but here is small, and everywhere else is just teeming.

I laid down in a quiet room for a bit, but then went back out there. Sorry. Can't stay here and dwell on details at the moment. Must go back out.

Thanks for that tip, Buncrana. It seems a few people are taking the chance. It's one of my comment standards. Oh ya want to investigate the Lockerbie bomber's case, do ya? Well, we were just talking about that... I'm all for a probe into Evil evil BP's role in freeing the terrorist, into that questionable prognosis, and the rest. The rest, being ...

I "Seeded" Grahame's PR at Newsvine.

All the noise has done good things for my site - a record run of new American viewers, my core target audience after all. If I could only quit writing about Bollier for long enough, maybe the Swiss will stop coming around so much. I just can't help it though...
 
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Oh, the issue was quite prominent on the radio news this morning. A former ambassador to Libya who is now deputy chaiman of a Libyan-UK business group, was interviewed. He said it's simply a non-issue. It never comes up in business negotiations and nobody is talking about it. It hasn't improved business relations. His point was that the Libyans were threatening unspecified dire consequences if Megrahi wasn't sent home (i.e. died in a Scottish jail), but since he has been sent home no dire consequences have happened.

He also made a good point that there was potential for good to come of the repatriation, in showing a magnanimous attitude and sensitivity to foreign feelings. That has however been totally lost by all the bitching and vitriol that's been coming from almost all sides on the subject.

He started by saying that this is about US senators and the US families who still believe Megrahi actually did it (subtext clear, but not explored, that there are a lot of people who don't believe Megrahi did it). Discussion revealed what we all know, that there is no mystery about what happened. Is it perhaps that the US senators don't understand the separation of powers between the Scottish and UK governments, asked the interviewer? Indeed, that's just one of the many things the US senators don't seem to understand, was the answer.

What is the point of calling for an enquiry then, the interviewer asked. To give the senators publicity and make them seem to be tough guys, was the answer.

Yanks need to go away and worry about something they (a) understand and (b) can do something about.

Rolfe.
 
Oh, the issue was quite prominent on the radio news this morning. A former ambassador to Libya who is now deputy chaiman of a Libyan-UK business group, was interviewed. He said it's simply a non-issue. It never comes up in business negotiations and nobody is talking about it. It hasn't improved business relations. His point was that the Libyans were threatening unspecified dire consequences if Megrahi wasn't sent home (i.e. died in a Scottish jail), but since he has been sent home no dire consequences have happened.

He also made a good point that there was potential for good to come of the repatriation, in showing a magnanimous attitude and sensitivity to foreign feelings. That has however been totally lost by all the bitching and vitriol that's been coming from almost all sides on the subject.

He started by saying that this is about US senators and the US families who still believe Megrahi actually did it (subtext clear, but not explored, that there are a lot of people who don't believe Megrahi did it). Discussion revealed what we all know, that there is no mystery about what happened. Is it perhaps that the US senators don't understand the separation of powers between the Scottish and UK governments, asked the interviewer? Indeed, that's just one of the many things the US senators don't seem to understand, was the answer.

What is the point of calling for an enquiry then, the interviewer asked. To give the senators publicity and make them seem to be tough guys, was the answer.

Yanks need to go away and worry about something they (a) understand and (b) can do something about.

Rolfe.

Mr. Miles I presume.I watched a panel discussion with him. I dig his agnosticism and pessimism.

One thing about this country is it's capable of doing things about a lot things, while understanding at the top, but the public level are kept like children. They really think we can and should have Megrahi killed forthwith, or bomb Libya, or something.Flippant discussion, I know but... and the Senatorrs likely know they can't ACTUALLY do anything here. It was just an extremely opportune time to act touch, with "reports" that "bomber could live a decade" and such.

I think it's on the downswing now and will fade, leaving only a faint aftertaste.
 
Here's today's news in the country whose business this actually is.

Fury at US Megrahi allegations

Brian Currie said:
The Scottish Government has categorically denied suggestions by US Senators that lobbying by oil giant BP played a part in the decision to release the man convicted of the Lockerbie bombing.

It said there had been no contact with the company and that the issue raised by the politicians centred on the Prisoner Transfer Agreement (PTA) negotiated by the governments of the UK and Libya, but nothing to do with the decision to free Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi on compassionate grounds.

A spokesman said it was a “totally different process, based on entirely different criteria”.

He added: “We were always totally opposed to the Prisoner Transfer Agreement negotiated between the UK and Libyan Governments. The memorandum that led to the PTA was agreed without our knowledge and against our wishes.”

He said Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill rejected the application from Libya under the PTA specifically on the basis that the US Government and families of victims in the US had been led to believe that such a prisoner transfer would not be possible for anyone convicted of the Lockerbie atrocity.


It's also dominating the letters pages
.

Jim Swire said:
She [Hillary Clinton] would soon see how desperate Jack Straw (as Justice Minister) was to push through the Prisoner Transfer Agreement (PTA) in time for the start of Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi’s second appeal, even overriding the request of the House of Commons Select Committee on Human Rights for more time.

She might then stop to wonder what the motivation might have been for Straw’s clumsy haste, and why the UK authorities seem to have been desperate to neutralise Megrahi’s attempts to overturn a verdict influenced by multiple instances of government and Crown Office withholding of documents from the defence and indeed the court.

Interference in criminal justice for political reasons would be a far more serious charge than a mere grubby oil deal, of which there are so many examples in both our and her own country’s history.


Iain Mann said:
Why do Americans always think they have a God-given right to interfere in the internal affairs of other sovereign nations? Pan-Am flight 103 fell to earth in Scotland, which, under international law, meant that all investigations and subsequent trials and criminal prosecutions came under the jurisdiction of Scots law.

If former barrister Tony Blair did not understand or ignored this when he made a deal with General Gaddafi to release Megrahi (as I suspect he did), that does not alter the fact. And if the deal was made in exchange for Libyan oil concessions to BP (which I suspect it was), neither Blair nor the UK government was in a position to deliver the prisoner exchange. Many like me have concerns about the trial and conviction of Megrahi, but it was carried out under the independent Scottish justice system, as was the decision of Kenny MacAskill to release him on compassionate grounds.

What do the Americans find difficult to understand and accept about this? If the situation were reversed, would they be willing to let British politicians interfere in the US judicial process? I find distasteful the apparent American thirst for revenge and retribution, as if incarcerating one terminally-ill old man in a prison cell would make them feel better [....]


And so on. I don't think Dr. Mann is desperately familiar with the case, because he refers to Tony Gauci as a "Cypriot" shopkeeper later in his letter, but he's got the basics.

It really is quite frustrating. The more you examine the evidence, the more obvious it is that the conviction was perverse in the extreme and flew in the face of the evidence, and less plausible it is that Megrahi had anything to do with it. And yet we hear ignoramuses of all nationalities spouting off about this "mass murderer".

Where's the clue-bat when you really need it?

Rolfe.
 
The only thing bothering me (besides the apparent cock-up) is the people in the US State Department who should know about the solidity (or lack thereof) of the conviction don't seem to. Unless they're really playing politics and are just putting on faces of outraged disbelief for public consumption, all the while just waiting for it to go away.


As for the BP link, it's in progress, so I can't say if it's an ultra-huge deal not or yet, from this side. It's definitely been mentioned on newscasts, though, and stated as being BP warning whoever that this bomber thing was impacting their contracts/whatever with Libya. <-- Just reporting!
 
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the people in the US State Department who should know about the solidity (or lack thereof) of the conviction don't seem to. Unless they're really playing politics and are just putting on faces of outraged disbelief for public consumption, all the while just waiting for it to go away.


They don't know and they don't want to know. This is something that simply hasn't been talked about in America for twenty years.

Beerina, Megrahi was fitted up mainly by US officials (sorry, I'm not familiar enough with the bureaucratic structures to know which department did what). The CIA essentially bribed their informer Giaka to swear to a pack of pure invention about Megrahi and Fhimah, and paraded him in court in the full knowledge that he was making stuff up to keep their retainers coming in.

Tony Gauci, whose evidence was (against all reason and sense) accepted by the court, was subsequently paid $2 million to fund a new life in Australia, by US authorities. US Department of Justice officials practically ran the prosecution case, sitting next to the Scottish prosecutors in court and controlling what was and was not given in evidence.

The USA desires even less than the UK and Scotland to admit to itself that they got the wrong guy.

Rolfe.
 
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