• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Loch Ness Monster real?

carcharodon said:
It's here in this thread. Some people have chosen to ignore it completely. Take Cuddles for instance. I gave links to bona fide examples of shot and caught alien cats that were at large in the British countryside. Cuddles ignores this and then proceeds to ask me if the photos William Parcher poster was the only evidence there is?
Click to expand...

As many people have pointed out, no-one is arguing that there have never been big cats loose in Britain, what we are saying is that there is no evidence that there are currently any big cats loose in Britain. All the photos I have seen are at best inconclusive and at worst very obviuosly not alien cats. Just because lots of people claim to have seen something does not make it so. Just because lots of people have blurry photos does not mean they saw anything unsual. The reason everyone is arguing against you is because you are simply trying to argue against a straw man that none of us care about. If you want a to have a reasoned discussion on the current existence of alien cats you need to provide your evidence that they exist. If you simply keep saying that a few have existed in the past and that therefore all anecdotes should be considered good evidence, we will carry on not taking you seriously.

The Loch Ness Monster is even funnier because the legends are hundreds of years old, older than any animal known. To postulate that there is anything unusual in the lake that has given rise to the legend requires an entirely new creature that has not been recorded before, whether this is a single long-lived creature or a breeding population of something. It is worth bearing in mind that giant eels only seem to be referenced on cryptozoology sites, and appear to have no basis in scientific fact. As such, claiming that the monster could be sightings of giant eels is no less silly than claiming it could be a dinosaur. In addition, the fact that despite many claimed sightings there is not a single good photo or specimen to show that there is anything in the loch means that you are really looking for an explanation for something that probably isn't there. This is very similar to "researchers" trying to find an explanation for telepathy, despite there being no evidence it actually happens in the first place.
 
The Bodmin PDF represents a salutary tale for the cryptos, I would say. Doubtless as an official document it's been summarily dismissed by many of them. It would have been interesting to see what Carch and Porterboy had to say about it.. Do you think it's worth my doing a brief summary of the Bodmin case in a dedicated "phantom cat" thread?
 
Last edited:
Big Les said:
You seem to think that our agenda is to discredit the idea that SOME big cats have been known to have escaped or been released. How can it be? You have the evidence; bodies, whatever verified photo evidence you have. If any of this corroborates separate eyewitness reports at the same time and place, then great, big whoop, you're right. The logical leap that I'm taking issue with is that from those verified cases, to giving undue credence to every unsubstantial report and photograph. By inference at least, the cryptos are saying that there have been and are as we type, significant numbers of big cats abroad in the UK. That's the disconnect.
Click to expand...

Your argument is weak. There has never been photographic or video evidence which has been anywhere near conclusive. However, at least a dozen instances of big cats being captured or killed have occurred in the UK in the last 25 years. You are saying that because there is no current clear evidence that big cats exist right now in the UK then we should believe that they do not, even though it has been proven time and time again that such evidence is not a prerequisite for the phenomenon to be valid. So, if we apply your argument over time we'd get something like this (non-exhaustive) list ~

You assert that UK big cats don't exist because there is no current hard evidence
1970 - Puma caught in Devon
You are proved wrong

You assert that UK big cats don't exist because there is no current hard evidence
1975 - Leopard killed in Kent
You are proved wrong

You assert that UK big cats don't exist because there is no current hard evidence
1980 - Puma caught in Scotland
You are proved wrong

You assert that UK big cats don't exist because there is no current hard evidence
1987 - Puma shot in London
You are proved wrong

You assert that UK big cats don't exist because there is no current hard evidence
1988 - Leopard killed on Dartmoor
You are proved wrong

You assert that UK big cats don't exist because there is no current hard evidence
1988 - Jungle cat killed in Hampshire
You are proved wrong

You assert that UK big cats don't exist because there is no current hard evidence
1991 - Lnyx shot in Norfolk
You are proved wrong

You assert that UK big cats don't exist because there is no current hard evidence
2001 - Lynx captured in London
You are proved wrong

You assert that UK big cats don't exist because there is no current hard evidence
2007 ...
Are you wrong?

Probably.
 
Re-read my statement.

there have been and are as we type, significant numbers of big cats abroad in the UK.
Click to expand...

The quality evidence has indeed shown over time that individual exotic cats escape/are released. It does NOT show that, at any one time where one of these cats was abroad, there were other animals also abroad, ie significant numbers. As Carch put it; say 10-50. More than one.

Of course it's perfectly possible that at any given time, there were more than one on the loose. But there's no evidence of that. As I've said, it's the difference between some cats getting out now and then, and there being any kind of UK "population" of big cats. The difference between isolated incidents and a "phenomenon". Also the difference between escaped cats being in any way connected with the sightings, dodgy photos, and especially daft folk tales like the Beast of Bodmin or Black Shuck.

If I find time, I'll start a cat thread with a summary of my take, and you can rejoin. If you fancy it, start one yourself with what you think is the strongest individual case or cases.
 
Big Les said:
Re-read my statement.

The quality evidence has indeed shown over time that individual exotic cats escape/are released. It does NOT show that, at any one time where one of these cats was abroad, there were other animals also abroad, ie significant numbers. As Carch put it; say 10-50. More than one.
Click to expand...


Ah, now we're getting somewhere. I did read your statement (re "significant"), however, I would consider any number significant. Certainly I would agree that it is very unlikely there are 10 or more big cats lurking at any one time, and there is no evidence of a breeding population (although that is by no means impossible)
 
baron said:
You assert that UK big cats don't exist because there is no current hard evidence
2001 - Lynx captured in London
You are proved wrong

You assert that UK big cats don't exist because there is no current hard evidence
2007 ...
Are you wrong?
Click to expand...

But none of those cases would have proved us wrong because there was no current evidence. Was there evidence of many alien cats loose in Britain at the time a lynx was caught in London? No. There was probably evidence of one being loose in London, although there may not even have been that, but to take the leap from there being one cat which has been found and caught to there being lots of others all over the place which keep scaring people but somehow never get caught on camera is a completely different matter. Yes, we may be wrong and there may be 20 alien cats loose in Britain, but the simple fact is that the evidence doesn't support this, and therefore most of us don't think it is likely.

In addition, I don't know the details of these cases. how long were they loose? It seems far more likely that these were escaped/released cats where the police were notified there was a cat loose and acted quickly to catch it. This is not at all the same as claiming that there is a large cat loose in an area for years during which time no-one actually manages to photograph it.
 
Porterboy said:
Rob, as Jon explains in the film, mosters are not a part of the tourist industry of Lake Windemere. The region has no monster legends. The same cannot be said for Loch Ness, but still, see that camera footage. I can't see them staging that!
Click to expand...

Your kidding right you believe in old nessy!
 
Reading this thread has been a strange experience. It makes me wonder.

Is there something odd about British people that either:
A) makes them much more likely than others to keep large cats, or
B) makes them far less likely than others to stop them from escaping, or
C) gives them some strange predilection to releasing these cats?

Maybe big cat escapes are fairly common all over the place. Still, I would bet that (say) Japan has as many captive cats as the UK does, and they don't seem to have so many confirmed captures/shootings. Is there some subculture in Britain that uses pet pumas as status symbols or something?

:D
 
Doc, "alien big cat" sighting claims are also common in the USA and Australia. It isn't just the Brits; but they do seem to be a bit more fervent and established in their cultish occupation with the issue. Here in the USA, we have regular reports of folks seeing black panthers (also for pumas in weird places). It's more of the same in Oz. But it's the same damn thing from each country... photos and videos of moggies that were supposed to have been panthers. Ugh!

What blows my mind is that in most of the recorded sightings the cat is black. Fairly regularly, the witness goes as far as saying that the cat was a black puma. This is a hypothetical color variant that has not yet been documented as existing anywhere at any time. Black panthers (melanistic leopards & jaguars) would be very expensive pets and are not at all common in the first place.

From my skeptical perspective, it looks like a very limited form of mass hysteria. Where there have been published reports of big cats, folks will think that any roaming moggie is "that beast everyone has been seeing". All the photos of housecats on the websites show that people are making big mistakes, or maybe trying to see just how goofy this fiasco can get.
 
Doc Daneeka said:
Reading this thread has been a strange experience. It makes me wonder.

Is there something odd about British people that either:
A) makes them much more likely than others to keep large cats, or
B) makes them far less likely than others to stop them from escaping, or
C) gives them some strange predilection to releasing these cats?

Maybe big cat escapes are fairly common all over the place. Still, I would bet that (say) Japan has as many captive cats as the UK does, and they don't seem to have so many confirmed captures/shootings. Is there some subculture in Britain that uses pet pumas as status symbols or something?

:D
Click to expand...
Ho, ho... No, no, we just eat 'em and keep it on the down low.

(No big pussy jokes please.)
 
William Parcher said:
It isn't just the Brits; but they do seem to be a bit more fervent and established in their cultish occupation with the issue. Here in the USA, we have regular reports of folks seeing black panthers
Click to expand...

Yeah, but at least they don't carry shotguns openly any more....
 
kitakaze said:
Ho, ho... No, no, we just eat 'em and keep it on the down low. (No big pussy jokes please.)
Click to expand...

Japan is a bit further along in confirming their alien big cats by photographic evidence.

jaguar3.jpg
 
William Parcher said:
What blows my mind is that in most of the recorded sightings the cat is black. Fairly regularly, the witness goes as far as saying that the cat was a black puma. This is a hypothetical color variant that has not yet been documented as existing anywhere at any time. Black panthers (melanistic leopards & jaguars) would be very expensive pets and are not at all common in the first place.
Click to expand...

Of course, the only knowledge most British people have of big cats is The Jungle Book, so they think all big cats look like Bhagheera. Except lions and tigers, but by a huge coincidence no-one ever reports seeing one of these.
 
Last edited:
As long as they don't start releasing these in the UK we should be OK...

499583-liger.jpg
 
Porterboy said:
For the first time since it was first reported by St Columba more than 1500 years ago, we could be close to solving one of the most famous mysteries in the world. There have been many attempts to explain Loch Ness Monster sightings away as hoaxes and delusions; none of them have been satisfactory. In the last few centuries, since the area around Loch Ness has been inhabited by humans, the sightings have accumulated into the 1000's and are reprted by multiple, reliable witnesses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk656VyO1vA

This film describes the recent expedition to the Lake District by the Centre for Fortean Zoology to prove a new theory: That there exist in British lakes giant eels over 20 feet long! Eels that easily qualify for the title "monster". I've a lot of respect for Jonathan Downes and his colleages and I've read all his books. I wish them luck. Here's their website:

http://www.cfz.org.uk/
Click to expand...



reply: Jon Downes and his beard notwithstanding,

there is some water monster in one of the lakes by Windemere.

A young black girl from London has videotaped a large, shape-changing
dark thing that had clouds of sea gulls around it, maybe 50 feet long,
absolutely not an eel.

Eels in Loch Ness? Not 20 feet for sure, and not at the surface.

Sorry John - being a brit does not make you right.

Monstro
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom