Link between 9/11 'Truth' and Holocaust Deniers?

[uke2se]

Ah again the whole anti-semetic line. As soon as anyone joins a group that wants to find out the the truth will be suspected of being anti-semetic, classic tecchnique to muddle the waters by the powers that be.

Ah, again the woo-peddler who can't read.

 

[Scott Sommers]

So because I can't account for the beliefs of people I haven't met, that somehow invalidates what I have already described as my personal experience?



In my experience it certainly has been. Why do my experiences seem to have offended you?



So you associate with a much better crowd of conspiracist? You believe in "special" conspiracies. Good for you but it doesn't mean a thing. Odds are still pretty good you believe in a lot more than one whacked out conspiracy theory.

I apologize if I offended you. I certainly didn't mean to. It's just after a couple of years on this forum, you start to see the same things over and over. Maybe it makes me sound abrupt and rude. I certainly don't mean to be.

I think you may have misunderstood my message. What I mean to say is that I have systematically counted hundreds, maybe thousands of conspiracy theorists. I have written papers about this, one of which you can find in a link contained in my signature. When you start to count things systematically, a lot of what seems like random noise starts to take on patterns.

Conspiracy theory is by its nature cognitively confused. That doesn't mean it was the cognitive confusion that lead to the conspiracy theory belief. In some cases it might have. In some cases, mental illness, which is different from cognitive confusion, would have been the cause. I don't doubt that in these situations your description of confused people grabbing at any sort of weird idea would be more or less accurate.

One of the points I keep trying to make is that conspiracy theory today, is something quite different that what it was when I was young. In fact, there's another thread going on right now to this effect. And as you may have seen in one of my posts on that thread, my point is that conspiracy theory has been politicized to create an enemy.

I'm pretty beat right now. I just wanted to try and straighten this out. I hope that's been enough because I'd like to continue this.

And Nick, I'll get to your post eventually, but there's a lot there and it'll take me a while to sort through it.

 

[Robrob]

I apologize if I offended you. I certainly didn't mean to. It's just after a couple of years on this forum, you start to see the same things over and over. Maybe it makes me sound abrupt and rude. I certainly don't mean to be.

Well you certainly don't sound rude now (actually you sound pretty logical) so I am willing to say I was too quick to judge.

 

[CTB]

I do not find it surprising that a few people unwilling to accept straightforward answers, to their legitimate concerns, about an event that happened just 10 years ago can be seduced by denials of, arguably, the planet's biggest event of the 20th Century.

Twoofers are kinda daft, but in a zany, likable way. Neo-nazis are dangerous and delusional. That there's a cross-over between the dumb and the dangerous? Well, it's the smart and the dangerous that you have to watch out for. They're the sort that just flat-out kill ya. Only numbskulls warn you first.

CTs about 9/11 and the denial of the holocaust are the dumbest of the dumb, never more so when combined.

 

[MaxMurx]

Do you think to be the hen or the egg?

An interesting detail came into my mind reading the contributions in this thread. Many events in the close or not so close history have official versions how allegedly they had happened. Those official versions however have logical errors, they contain absurdities and details not compatible with the laws of nature. Those errors are not necessarily deliberate fraud but can be simple errors, misunderstanding, information gaps, premature reporting but also deliberate falsified reports like it is very likely in reports obtained from parties involved in a war.
Questionning those details obviously triggers an association chain in the contributers to the present threat "doubter - denier -conspiracy theory believer - anti semitic neo nazi".
That generalisation is on the same primitive level as it is in a true "conspiracy theory believer" thinking that all events are staged by malvolant governments to treach the public, which by the way wouldn't be necessary if the tools of public "mind control", assumed by some others, really would exist.
Everybody must accept that inaccuracies or errors as well as lies in offcial records must be corrected or verified - for one purpose only: to support the truth. This is neither anti semitic nor does it make any accusation to whatever governement to deliberately treach the public, its for the sake of truth, nothing else.

 

[Nick Terry]

An interesting detail came into my mind reading the contributions in this thread. Many events in the close or not so close history have official versions how allegedly they had happened. Those official versions however have logical errors, they contain absurdities and details not compatible with the laws of nature. Those errors are not necessarily deliberate fraud but can be simple errors, misunderstanding, information gaps, premature reporting but also deliberate falsified reports like it is very likely in reports obtained from parties involved in a war.
Questionning those details obviously triggers an association chain in the contributers to the present threat "doubter - denier -conspiracy theory believer - anti semitic neo nazi".
That generalisation is on the same primitive level as it is in a true "conspiracy theory believer" thinking that all events are staged by malvolant governments to treach the public, which by the way wouldn't be necessary if the tools of public "mind control", assumed by some others, really would exist.
Everybody must accept that inaccuracies or errors as well as lies in offcial records must be corrected or verified - for one purpose only: to support the truth. This is neither anti semitic nor does it make any accusation to whatever governement to deliberately treach the public, its for the sake of truth, nothing else.

Pull the other one. You've previously exhibited more than strong sympathies for Holocaust denial, and you're rather visibly caricaturing how it is that major events are investigated.

That's especially so with the Holocaust, which was rather demonstrably investigated by multiple nation states as well as non-governmental organisations. Whose is the 'official version'? Who decided what that was? When did they do this? Will you make any allowance whatsoever for the contributions of journalists and academics, or are all of these researchers slaves to the hive mind of your fantasy "government"? What about separation of powers?

 

[MaGZ]

Have many of you observed an overlap between 9/11 'Truthers' and Holocaust deniers? (Truthers are '9/11 deniers' I suppose...)

This is not something I had thought about or noticed until recently, but as I was perusing some older threads I saw a few of our resident Truthers 'just asking questions' about the Holocaust.

Is this a common overlap? If so, why would this be? Is it merely the same type of paranoid and conspiratorial thinking or is actually part of a worldview? (That is, are these people just oriented towards believing conspiracy theories or do both of these CTs fit into a larger belief system?)

How common is this overlap?

What other theories get mixed up into this conspiracy cocktail? NWO? Illuminati? Elders of Zion?

Can this overlap be explained by the simple fact that any time, anything bad happens, anywhere...the Jews are held responsible?



Holocaust denial is (typically) thought of as a right-wing movement. (There is probably some from the left as well, since some elements of the left are more critical of Israel). 9/11 Truth, if I understand correctly, began largely as a left-wing movement, if for no other reason than the President at the time was a Republican. It does seem that Trutherism has picked up a right-wing flavor in recent years however...




NOTE: The above contains generalizations about left and right that are meant to be rough guides rather than strict categories.

ETA - I put this in CT forum rather than the 9/11 subforum because it was not purely 9/11...But, the mods can certainly move it should that be more appropriate...

When you have Dancing Israelis on 9/11 anything is possible.
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Dancing_Israelis_on_9/11

 

[MaGZ]

This question has been beaten to death over on the 9/11 conspiracy forum. You can post over there for more details.

But let me straighten you out on one thing - 9/11 Truth is not a left-wing movement. I have written so much about this on this forum and elsewhere. One place to start is the link in my signature to the Skeptic article I published earlier this year. You can also look through this thread
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187454&highlight="left+wing"
which provides the logic of my position and counter arguments. If you have any questions, I will be happy to answer them.

It certainly started out as a left-wing movement.
Reference: Thierry Meyssan, and the first Truther book 9/11: The Big Lie.

 

[MaGZ]

I'd say Scott's article sums up nicely what the evidence show about the overlap between holocaust denial and 9/11 twoof. I'd like to note, though, that I have seen twoofers fervently defend the historical fact of the holocaust in the face of true believers. One notable twoofer on this site who did so is Miragememories who, however much we mutually dislike each other, I have to commend for taking such a firm stance on the issue.

Twoofers would do well to take Miragememories' example and stamp out the filth that is holocaust denial from their "movement". I doubt it'll happen, though, especially since the "movement" itself is pretty inert these days, and the remaining twoofers can be expected to cling to any allies remaining.

You give yourself away.

 

[MaGZ]

Lots and lots of overlap between Holocaust Denial and 9-11 Trutherism:

1. Eric Hufschmid, who wrote the first major American book and produced the first major American video of 9-11 "Truth", is a Holocaust Denier.

2. Jim Fetzer, a co-founder of Scholars for 9-11 "Truth" has dabbled in Holocaust Denial:


Of course, denying the number killed is a central element of Holocaust Denial.

3. Kevin Barrett, who was the first university lecturer to include 9-11 "Truth" in a college course, is a Holocaust Denier.

4. The American Free Press, started by Holocaust Denier Willis Carto, employed Christopher Bollyn, whose 9-11 Truth "research" is often cited by the guru of the Truthers, David Ray Griffin.

5. The February 2007 Arizona conference entitled 9-11 Accountability was organized by Eric D. Williams, who wrote two books of 9-11 Truth and one of Holocaust Denial.

6. The website Veterans Today often publishes articles of 9-11 Truth and Holocaust Denial.

7. Anthony Lawson, who created the famous Truther video "This is an orange," is a Holocaust Denier.

8. Sofia Shafquat, who created the influential 9-11 Truth video 9-11 Mysteries, sells the Ernst Zundel story on her website and credits Eric Hufschmid as inspiring her video.

9. This just covers some of the major players in 9-11 Truth; there are many minor characters such as Adam Syed, Nick Kollerstrom, Bishop Williamson, etc., who combine their 9-11 nuttery with Holocaust Denial.

I think these guys were late arrivals to the party. Look at the early Truthers and you will find them left of center.

Eric Hufschmid is someone who has grown with the Truth Movement. He started with the JFK conspiracy, 9/11, then Holocaust revisionism.

 

[MaGZ]

I apologize if I offended you. I certainly didn't mean to. It's just after a couple of years on this forum, you start to see the same things over and over. Maybe it makes me sound abrupt and rude. I certainly don't mean to be.

I think you may have misunderstood my message. What I mean to say is that I have systematically counted hundreds, maybe thousands of conspiracy theorists. I have written papers about this, one of which you can find in a link contained in my signature. When you start to count things systematically, a lot of what seems like random noise starts to take on patterns.

Conspiracy theory is by its nature cognitively confused. That doesn't mean it was the cognitive confusion that lead to the conspiracy theory belief. In some cases it might have. In some cases, mental illness, which is different from cognitive confusion, would have been the cause. I don't doubt that in these situations your description of confused people grabbing at any sort of weird idea would be more or less accurate.

One of the points I keep trying to make is that conspiracy theory today, is something quite different that what it was when I was young. In fact, there's another thread going on right now to this effect. And as you may have seen in one of my posts on that thread, my point is that conspiracy theory has been politicized to create an enemy.

I'm pretty beat right now. I just wanted to try and straighten this out. I hope that's been enough because I'd like to continue this.

And Nick, I'll get to your post eventually, but there's a lot there and it'll take me a while to sort through it.

I just read you fraudulent paper contending We Are Change is a Libertarian-Conservative organization.

Why do you choose to spread such lies. Look at their web page.

We Are Change
http://www.wearechange.org/

 

[catsmate]

When you have Dancing Israelis on 9/11 anything is possible.
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Dancing_Israelis_on_9/11

Quoting metapedia?

You give yourself away.

By describing holocaust denial as filth? I'd say most sane people with agree that a tiny group of Nazi apologists and justifiers who lie about mass murder to further their beliefs would accurately be describes as 'filth'.

Eric Hufschmid is someone who has grown with the Truth Movement. He started with the JFK conspiracy, 9/11, then Holocaust revisionism.

Exactly a conspiracy nut.

I just read you fraudulent paper contending We Are Change is a Libertarian-Conservative organization.

Why do you choose to spread such lies. Look at their web page.

So nothing to refute the content of the paper then?

 

[Nick Terry]

It certainly started out as a left-wing movement.
Reference: Thierry Meyssan, and the first Truther book 9/11: The Big Lie.

actually quite a few of Meyssan's "arguments" came from French fascist circles.

 

[MaGZ]

actually quite a few of Meyssan's "arguments" came from French fascist circles.

I doubt that.

If you care to provide some evidence go ahead.

 

[LSSBB]

When you have Dancing Israelis on 9/11 anything is possible.
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Dancing_Israelis_on_9/11

What do the "five dancing Israelis" prove beyond some folks are insensitive idiots?

 

[uke2se]

You give yourself away.

How so? What do I give away when I state the widely accepted notion that holocaust denial is one of the filthiest and most depraved conspiracy theories?

 

[Justin39640]

How so? What do I give away when I state the widely accepted notion that holocaust denial is one of the filthiest and most depraved conspiracy theories?

You gave away that you're human with a soul and compassion. Unlike... well, you know who lol.

 

[Walter Ego]

Originally Posted by MaGZ

You give yourself away.

How so? What do I give away when I state the widely accepted notion that holocaust denial is one of the filthiest and most depraved conspiracy theories?

I think what MaGZ is saying is you gave yourself away as a Jew. Why else would you call Jew haters filthy and depraved? Keep in mind this is coming from someone who thinks The Jews^TM shot a guided missile from the Woolworth Building into the WTC on 9/11.

 

[MaGZ]

What do the "five dancing Israelis" prove beyond some folks are insensitive idiots?

It proves these Mossad agents had prior knowledge of the attacks.

 

[MaGZ]

I think what MaGZ is saying is you gave yourself away as a Jew. Why else would you call Jew haters filthy and depraved? Keep in mind this is coming from someone who thinks The Jews^TM shot a guided missile from the Woolworth Building into the WTC on 9/11.

I have never made this claim about the missiles.

My claim is Air National Guard from Otis Air Base arrived at 9:03 and attempted to shoot down the second hijacked plane as it was going into WTC2. One of the missiles hit WTC7 on the south side of the building and another apparently flew over into the Hudson River.

There were 911 calls to police where some thought missiles came from the Woolworth Building but these callers were confused or mistaken having seen the missiles from the fighters.