Library Interent Filters

[Segnosaur]

We probably wouldn't buy Dan Brown's novel, unless it was requested. However, you could still get it, even if we didn't buy it, through and inter-library loan.

Not all libraries are so connected, nor can all materials be obtained that way.

In a Public Library, you DO have acess to 'everything', you just might have to wait to review it. (*I know I have said that before, but you didn't hear it the other 5 times, so I am forced to repeat myself.)

Wrong.. my local library does not provide explicit pornography, nor does it carry fine art (even through interlibrary loan), so they don't have access to 'everything'. I rather suspect your library is the same.

"...However, your claim that there are somehow people who would be somehow isolated in the world if the library did not carry DVDs, CDs and the internet is not supported by evidence, and I have pointed out repeatedly how that would not be the case."

YOU ARE WRONG, period. EVERY Public Library's statistics DIRECTLY contradict this stance. IF you had the access within your home to these materials, WHY would you leavce your home, to go to a Library and access 'their' material or resources!?!?!?

A number of reasons...
- People want convenience... they want the DVD so they can see the movie earlier than they would if they had to wait for it on TV, or see it at a time they prefer (an understandable desire). But making them wait does not mean 'censorship'. In fact, as I pointed out, you yourself said that waiting was an acceptable part of the library experience (so waiting for it on TV would not be a big issue)
- People may go to the library to actually read books/newspapers (which they would not have access to), and borrow the movies/music/whatever when they're there for the other material

People come to the Library because they desire access, that they otherwise do have and or can't afford or find on their own.

Except that you haven't provided proof that there are materials that people
CAN'T access except through the library.

FOR SOME, THE LIBRARY IS THE ONLY RESOURCE, AND CONNECTION TO THE WORLD OUTSIDE THEIR HOME. Regardless, if what YOU think, this is the truth.

If a person choses to make the library the only resource and ignores all other sources of free content, that is their own fault.

I requested that you stop espousing this non-sense TO ME, 'here' and now.

I did not tell you to stop speaking your mind.

The phrase 'shut up' is pretty clear....

And if you don't like me showing the fault in your arguments, then I'd suggest you stop reading. Or go hang out with Alex Jones. You and he seem to have the same mindset.

With that, I'll warn you, that your stance is NOT supported by current Public Library stastics.

And what exactly would those 'statistics' be? More irrelevancies?

 

[King of the Americas]

In order to BE a Public 'accredited' Library, that draws its operational budget from tax dollars, you HAVE to be a part of an inter-Library Loan system. Each State operates its own system, so that the books come from other Libraries within that State. However, I have had some materials come from National sponsors as well.

If a Library didn't provide access, to 'all' information, it would lose its accreditation to be qualified as a 'Public' institution.

You are wrong, again.

---

If you 'requested' pornographic material, your public Library would be 'obligated' to provide you such access. They may be able to enact policies that restrict such access, but those policies would be an infringement on your rights. If you were denied such access, you could take the issue to a court, and you'd win the ruling, hands down, without a fight. In the Library Bill of Rights I provided it was made perfectly clear that you can and DO deserve access to ALL the information, not just that stuff that a LIbrary Board thinks is 'good' or moral enough for you.

If you come to MY Library I can provide you all the access you want to fine art, even if it is only a copy or a replication of that work. (*We don't promise that you'll get to read the first edition of a publication, but we can get you access to the text of that item.)

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YOU 'think' that those coming to the Library to check out DVD's are only doing so out of convience, and not because they lack the funds to procure them...

*Objection- "Speculation, Your Honor. Segnosaur does NOT know what patrons are thinking, nor 'why' they made their request."

What we KNOW, is that people ARE making these requests. Our job is to fill that request/need, and to keep track of how often we do so.

Movies on broadcast TV ARE edited for time and content. Disallowing access to an artist 'entire' work, and instead only offering 'sanitized' versions IS censorship, even if YOU don't believe it.

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Here in Muenster, there are no internet cafes, and there ARE those who can't afford such access at their home, I am one of them.

Moreover, there isn't even a place in town nor with 15 miles that you CAN rent movies from.

I experienced similar situations in Lawton Oklahoma. There, one could find internet cafes, but at the time, 'I' was not in a financial position to partake, nor were the other Library users at the Library.

Not everyone lives near, or is capable of reaching these 'alternatives' you think exist.

I believe I HAVE provided proof of this fact, but I'll ask anyway. "What IS proof that Libraries are the ONLY source of information for some?"

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Believe it or not, not everyone 'chooses' where they live. NOT everyone 'chooses' to be poor, dis-advantaged, or without means of travel. 'Choice' does not come into the equation for many.

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You SHOULD shut up, and put your time and money where your mouth is. Go present these arguments to YOUR local Library. Better yet, contact the ALA, and request an audience before one of their committees. IF it is such a grand idea, I am sure they'll act immediately to help you fix what you believe is broken.

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Library statistics SHOW and PROVE, that there ARE needs and requests being filled by Libraries the country over.

If there is a highway that is used daily by hundreds of cars, you wouldn't suggest that there was no need for the highway, would you???

People use it, so there IS an need for it. Closing down a highway that people use, and telling them they can use another highway further away, isn't helping them.

Statistics PROVE that people want and need the access to information that we provide.

---

I am beginning to think that you aren't serious, and that you are just saying all this to mess with me.

 

[LibraryLady]

*big snip*

I am beginning to think that you aren't serious, and that you are just saying all this to mess with me.

Oddly enough, I'm not sure you are that important to Segnosaur.

And I know I should be jumping in here and stating the opinions of a thirty-year veteran librarian, but Segnosaur is doing such a great job.

 

[King of the Americas]

LibraryLady,

What am I getting wrong?

Are you seriously siding with him!?

And you are an actual "Librarian", not just a lowly volunteer???

Rather than hear your 'opinions', I'd rather you jump in and defend present Public Library Policies, against those who would seek to limit what people have access to within a Public Library.

Seriously, you 'agree' with him...?

That is truly shocking coming from a "Librarian" with 30 years experience.

 

[Segnosaur]

In order to BE a Public 'accredited' Library, that draws its operational budget from tax dollars, you HAVE to be a part of an inter-Library Loan system. Each State operates its own system, so that the books come from other Libraries within that State. However, I have had some materials come from National sponsors as well.

If a Library didn't provide access, to 'all' information, it would lose its accreditation to be qualified as a 'Public' institution.

Wait a sec... when you say access to all information, are you referring to all material in the local or other library's collection, or by all do you mean all books, movies, music, etc. that has ever been produced.

I rather suspect you were arguing about the former (that people should have access to anything the library has available), in which case I agree... libraries should cooperate in that way.

But I was arguing about the latter... that libraries cannot in any way manage to obtain any book, movie or music that has ever been made. And if you think that they can get anything, here's a suggestion... find the title of the most bizzare x-rated movie that's legally available... put a request in to the library... see what happens.

If you 'requested' pornographic material, your public Library would be 'obligated' to provide you such access.

But if they don't have it (either in their own collection or through interlibrary loan), then they can't provide it.

They may be able to enact policies that restrict such access, but those policies would be an infringement on your rights. If you were denied such access, you could take the issue to a court, and you'd win the ruling, hands down, without a fight.

Once again... the right to "free speech" does not mean that you have a guaranteed audience for your opinions, nor does it mean you have a guaranteed right to hear such speech. So you would not win your case "hands down" on constitutional grounds.

Of course, with all the libraries that have internet filters and/or 'no pr0n' policies on their computers, you'd expect that someone would have launched a court case suggesting such rules violated their rights. If such a court case existed, please point it out.

In the Library Bill of Rights I provided it was made perfectly clear that you can and DO deserve access to ALL the information, not just that stuff that a LIbrary Board thinks is 'good' or moral enough for you.

And once again, nowhere in the Library bill of rights does it state that the Library should maintain collection of all materials, only that all viewpoints should be respected.

If you come to MY Library I can provide you all the access you want to fine art, even if it is only a copy or a replication of that work. (*We don't promise that you'll get to read the first edition of a publication, but we can get you access to the text of that item.)

---

YOU 'think' that those coming to the Library to check out DVD's are only doing so out of convience, and not because they lack the funds to procure them...

*Objection- "Speculation, Your Honor. Segnosaur does NOT know what patrons are thinking, nor 'why' they made their request."

And YOU have the ability to mind-read ever person who checks out a DVD or CD through the library, to know why they made their request?

Movies on broadcast TV ARE edited for time and content. Disallowing access to an artist 'entire' work, and instead only offering 'sanitized' versions IS censorship, even if YOU don't believe it.

Wait a second....

Earlier on, you made the claim that it was acceptable that libraries provide "later editions", or that they provide "reproductions" to fulfill requests (even if those later editions have a change in content). Now, you're saying that any changes are unacceptable when dealing with movie edits? I smell some hypocracy.

Here in Muenster, there are no internet cafes, and there ARE those who can't afford such access at their home, I am one of them.

Yes, you've already stated that. And I've already pointed out:
- There may be more internet cafes if they didn't have to compete with 'free' library service
- The 'content' that library patrons want can be provided in newspapers/books/etc.

Moreover, there isn't even a place in town nor with 15 miles that you CAN rent movies from.

Are you in range of a TV and/or radio transmitter?

I believe I HAVE provided proof of this fact, but I'll ask anyway. "What IS proof that Libraries are the ONLY source of information for some?"

No you haven't provided such proof. You haven't shown why you can't get the information you desire through books/newspapers available at the library, or in the case of movies/music, you can't watch them when they come on TV.

Believe it or not, not everyone 'chooses' where they live. NOT everyone 'chooses' to be poor, dis-advantaged, or without means of travel. 'Choice' does not come into the equation for many.

But people can choose to either get their news from free TV/the radio, from newspapers in the library, or from library computers on the internet. People can choose to get their music from the radio or from CDs at the library. People can choose to get their movies from free TV or the library. If people choose the library for internet access, or for music/movies, then they have made a choice, one that wasn't based on whether to be poor or not.

You SHOULD shut up, and put your time and money where your mouth is. Go present these arguments to YOUR local Library. Better yet, contact the ALA, and request an audience before one of their committees.

Kind of difficult, since I'm in CANADA, not the U.S.

And once again, why is it necessary to talk to 'official' people to actually hold an opinion on this stuff?

Library statistics SHOW and PROVE, that there ARE needs and requests being filled by Libraries the country over.

The fact that requests ARE being filled by libraries does not mean that they are the only options for those requests.

If there is a highway that is used daily by hundreds of cars, you wouldn't suggest that there was no need for the highway, would you???

Bad anology, since it is physically impossible to have competing roadways (whereas Libraries can and do have competition).

Here's a better anology... if my local city road crew decided to actually start its own airline (on the argument that both provide necessary transportation), THEN I'd be annoyed, because roads are needed (just as libraries are needed); but branching into other areas however that are already served by private interests (at pretty much the same cost) is a waste of resources.

 

[Segnosaur]

And I know I should be jumping in here and stating the opinions of a thirty-year veteran librarian, but Segnosaur is doing such a great job.

I wish you would jump in... whether you agree with me or not. After all, I'm sure most of the people who have bothered following this thread at all have probably gotten quite bored with what's amounted to a go-nowhere argument, and I'd love to know your opinions on things. (And if you do disagree with anything that I've said, by all means let me know. Perhaps you can actually provide more convincing evidence than the insults and dogmatic assertions of KotA and get me to change my mind.)

 

[Segnosaur]

LibraryLady,

What am I getting wrong?

Are you seriously siding with him!?

And you are an actual "Librarian", not just a lowly volunteer???

Just out of curiosity, why should it matter if she were just a 'lowly volunteer'? You seem to criticize me because I supposedly 'know nothing' about what goes on at the library; I think 30 years (even if she was just a volunteer) should give someone more than enough exposure to what happens at libraries.

And when I volunteered in the library, I was doing pretty much all the stuff the regular staff was, I just wasn't getting paid.

Seriously, you 'agree' with him...?

That is truly shocking coming from a "Librarian" with 30 years experience.

Perhaps she's more pragmatic about what happens at libraries. Or perhaps she (like I) takes a bigger picture, considering the impact on ALL of society, not just library patrons.

 

[King of the Americas]

I can only say that 'I' have always been able to find an item, be it book or movie, through the inter-library system. If it was published, and you have the title and author, I can get you the item. At least to date, I have had to tell no one "No."

---

I'll bet you that I COULD get you access to whatever Porn Title you desired, if not through the inter-library loan system, I could use the Internet to do so.

If the request was a sincere one, as a volunteer Library Assistant, I would make it my job to help you locate that material, even if I thought it had no academic value.

---

I never said that Libraries should hold 'everything'. I said that they can NOT block or restict access to material, based on origin or content.

---

Here is a new interesting ruling from the Supreme Court. Within the piece it notes that within Freedom of Speech, "there is a First Amendment right not only to write and speak, but to read without censorship, as well".

I'll post a Supreme Court decision explaining that more clearly.

However, I think this article is an interesting one:

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hilden/20030701.html

---

There is a small town just 10 miles to our West. It is a town struggling to build and fund a Library, to include interent access. At present, there is no competing 'free' internet service, and yet there are no internet cafes to be found. So, there IS a need, because the community is expressing it, and trying to do something about it. DISALLOWING internet access in this new Library won't be helping anyone.

AGAIN: "What IS proof that Libraries are the ONLY source of information for some?"

---

Some people didn't 'choose' to not have a TV antenna, or live in an area of lower elevation, where reception is non-existant.

In order to make your statement true, you need to qualify it a bit more. Saying, "SOME people can make a choice as to where and how they get their information. Other people have no choice other than a Public Library."

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Look, I never said you couldn't hold an opinion different than mine. I merely noted that IF you want to see changes made, 'I' am not the one you should be arguing with...

---

In America, we have LOTS of different kinds of roads and highways.

Everything from dirt roads, paved Farm to Market Roads, concrete U.S. highways, to superstraight smooth interstate throughways. When a road needs to be repaired/receive funding, they set up a counter, and see if the need is great enough to require funding to fix or upgrade it.

If a highway or road IS being used, a lot, they fund it, because there is a clear need for it.

Libraries operate in the same manner. If no one was checking out material from a section, that section would get less funding. If a section was getting a lot of traffic, it would make no sense to eliminate that section or resource...

ALL the Internet terminals are almost always full at our Library, so much so that we have to limit users' time to an hour, if someone else is waiting. It makes NO SENSE to eliminate this option, given it popularity.

---

YOU WROTE:

"Wait a second....

Earlier on, you made the claim that it was acceptable that libraries provide "later editions", or that they provide "reproductions" to fulfill requests (even if those later editions have a change in content). Now, you're saying that any changes are unacceptable when dealing with movie edits? I smell some hypocracy."

I have no idea what you are talking about.

I said we can't assure you that you'll get to read a first edition book, but that we WILL get you the text therein, if it IS only a reproduction.

Reproductions/Reprints of books aren't censored, or edited for time or content. They are simply a newer copy of the work.

---

By the way I LOVE Canada, and hope to retire there someday.

The picture Michael Moore painted of your country sounded too good to pass up.

QUESTION: "When you are home, do you lock your doors?"

---

Here's another link that might help you understand the nature of Freedom of & TO Speech:

http://www.ala.org/ala/oif/iftoolkits/ifmanual/fifthedition/publiclibraries.htm

 

[King of the Americas]

Segnosaur,

'I' am, or rather I WAS, a Lowly Library Assistant. To become one, I did not need a certificate or degree of any kind. Meaning, that there was no need for me to demonstrate that 'I' understood or accepted that Public Libraries have standards, and that ALL patrons have rights.

LibraryLady, on the other hand, claims to be an actual "Librarian", which requires a B.A. in Library Sciences, or certification of some sort.

I was basically saying, with her education, she should know better.

I did lots of research before I actually became an official volunteer. I made it a point to know what my duties were, and what my patron's rights were, even though it was not required of me. For a time, I wanted to study Library Sciences, so I deemed the research important.

 

[King of the Americas]

Here's another link to Supreme Court decisions upon Foundations of Free Expression & The Right to Read Freely

http://www.ala.org/ala/oif/firstamendment/courtcases/courtcases.htm

 

[LibraryLady]

Segnosaur,

'I' am, or rather I WAS, a Lowly Library Assistant. To become one, I did not need a certificate or degree of any kind. Meaning, that there was no need for me to demonstrate that 'I' understood or accepted that Public Libraries have standards, and that ALL patrons have rights.

LibraryLady, on the other hand, claims to be an actual "Librarian", which requires a B.A. in Library Sciences, or certification of some sort.

I was basically saying, with her education, she should know better.

I did lots of research before I actually became an official volunteer. I made it a point to know what my duties were, and what my patron's rights were, even though it was not required of me. For a time, I wanted to study Library Sciences, so I deemed the research important.

I got my Masters degree in Library Science from the University of Maryland in 1977. Jimmy Carter was president and there was an incredibly annoying song that played on the radio every ten minutes, called “Afternoon Delight.”

I started as an entry level librarian in the Fine Arts and Music department of the Enoch Pratt Free Library. After a year I was transferred to the Humanities Department. Five years after that I was promoted to assistant manager of the newly renamed Fine Arts and Recreation department (don’t ask), and became the manager of that department about six years after that. Five years ago I was transferred to the Humanities department again, where I am now the manager.

I have written a major reference book while at the library, and was named Baltimore’s Best librarian by Baltimore Magazine in 1999. There have been articles about me in The Baltimore Jewish Times, The Baltimore Sun, and American Libraries.

You can find my work contact information at the Maryland library network, Sailor.

So, yes, I do claim to be a librarian.

Along with my many other duties, I am in charge of the collection development for my department.

I explained in an earlier post, I mentioned CIPA, the Child Internet Protection Act, which Congress passed. In order to retain our federal funding, which enables us to keep functioning and making materials available to the public, we were required to get filters on our computers. A form of blackmail from our federal government.

Collection development, which took me years to learn and understand thoroughly, is more than simply supplying a demand from individual patrons. A lot goes into what we purchase, indeed more now than in years past. For one thing, when I first started in this capacity, there were no on line databases to pay for, our media was limited to vinyl records and a few cassettes, and books stayed in print for more than two months at a time. Print on demand was unheard of and the Internet was a pipe dream, and that pipe was pretty darn suspicious.

Patron demand plays a huge role in what I purchase for the department. But remember, I am only allowed to order so many titles per month. Much of the ordering, for titles that are on the best-sellers lists or have movie tie-ins or are by wildly popular authors, are ordered centrally. So, every month I look at my nice neat lists of 200 books that are good candidates for purchase and make decisions. I base these decisions on how much similar books have circulated in the past, what kind of reviews each book has, including Amazon reviews, and the reliability of the publisher in putting out a well-produced product. For example, I avoid the vanity presses. I also have to decide how man copies of each title should be ordered.

Here is where I’m confused about your assertions. You seem to assert that libraries should make absolutely no value judgments at all when ordering books and should rely solely on demand from individuals. If this is correct, and the budget is limited, as it is in every library I know of, except maybe the Pierpont Morgan (sigh), aren’t you satisfying only a limited number of patrons? And won’t the interest in the books expire rather quickly?

I should add here that my library is at the hub of the state’s interlibrary loan network, so when we purchase books we are in effect purchasing for all of the citizens of Maryland.

I hope this is helpful to you, and that you will accept my credentials.

 

[Segnosaur]

I can only say that 'I' have always been able to find an item, be it book or movie, through the inter-library system. If it was published, and you have the title and author, I can get you the item. At least to date, I have had to tell no one "No."

I'm assuming at this point you have not tried to actually borrow material that would be classified as 'obscene' (or even hardcore). Frankly, I'd be very suprised if you actually had any success in doing so, because even though I have no moral objection to that material, and even though there are various groups which oppose censorship, the librarians themselves are probably rational enough to recognize that any library that stocks up on videos featuring beastiality and hardcore bondage will probably find themselves under tremendous pressure (from both the politicians and from staff members who objected to such material).

And please point out a public library in the U.S. that allows people to borrow sculptures and other works of 'fine art.'.

I'll bet you that I COULD get you access to whatever Porn Title you desired, if not through the inter-library loan system, I could use the Internet to do so.

Except to do so on the internet would likely require either A) a credit card (which violates the principle that information must be 'free') or B) would be available 'illegally', something else libraries should avoid.

I never said that Libraries should hold 'everything'.

Actually you used the word 'all' (as in the library should provide access to 'all' matarials.) That can be interpreted as suggesting libraries should hold everything (especially with your assertions that the library can get anything the user requests.)

Here is a new interesting ruling from the Supreme Court. Within the piece it notes that within Freedom of Speech, "there is a First Amendment right not only to write and speak, but to read without censorship, as well".

I'll post a Supreme Court decision explaining that more clearly.

However, I think this article is an interesting one:

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hilden/20030701.html

First of all, the article you referred to mentions that the supreme court actually supported the use of internet filters.

More importantly, internet filters censor on content. I never said I supported such censorship. (In fact I never even expressed an opinion on the internet filters at all.)

Of course, here is something I find curious.... earlier on (in the first page of the thread) you expressed suprise that there were laws that required internet filtering, yet those articles you referred to made specific mention of the law requirements. Did you not know of the provisions of the law?

There is a small town just 10 miles to our West. It is a town struggling to build and fund a Library, to include interent access. At present, there is no competing 'free' internet service, and yet there are no internet cafes to be found. So, there IS a need, because the community is expressing it, and trying to do something about it.

The community may have expressed a desire for internet access, but that does not there is a need for it.

DISALLOWING internet access in this new Library won't be helping anyone.

Actually it will help those people who want to access books or magazines in the library, where those materials would not have been available if the library was spending its limited resources on computers rather than printed material.

AGAIN: "What IS proof that Libraries are the ONLY source of information for some?"

Some people didn't 'choose' to not have a TV antenna, or live in an area of lower elevation, where reception is non-existant.

As I pointed out before... the cost of an antenna is less than 1/3 of that of a DVD player. At least here in Canada.

Look, I never said you couldn't hold an opinion different than mine. I merely noted that IF you want to see changes made, 'I' am not the one you should be arguing with...

You used the phrase 'shut up'. Pretty clear that you would rather have my opinions supresed.
---

In America, we have LOTS of different kinds of roads and highways.

Everything from dirt roads, paved Farm to Market Roads, concrete U.S. highways, to superstraight smooth interstate throughways. When a road needs to be repaired/receive funding, they set up a counter, and see if the need is great enough to require funding to fix or upgrade it.

If a highway or road IS being used, a lot, they fund it, because there is a clear need for it.

Still a bad anology, because roads are, for the most part, owned by the government (regardless of the type of road). There is no alternative (free or not), nor is there likely to be one because the laws of physics/geometry won't allow competing road systems.

YOU WROTE:

"Wait a second....

Earlier on, you made the claim that it was acceptable that libraries provide "later editions", or that they provide "reproductions" to fulfill requests (even if those later editions have a change in content). Now, you're saying that any changes are unacceptable when dealing with movie edits? I smell some hypocracy."

I have no idea what you are talking about.

I said we can't assure you that you'll get to read a first edition book, but that we WILL get you the text therein, if it IS only a reproduction.

Reproductions/Reprints of books aren't censored, or edited for time or content. They are simply a newer copy of the work.

Different editions of books often vary from each other. Reproductions may not be an accurate reproduction of the original. Having a copy of the second edition may not satisfy someone looking for a first edition, in the same way that looking at a picture of a sculpture in a book will satisfy someone wanting to look at a real sculpture.

So, if getting edition 2 of a book is acceptable (when the person really wanted edition 1), then a movie on TV (also differing slightly from the original) should also be acceptable.

By the way I LOVE Canada, and hope to retire there someday.

The picture Michael Moore painted of your country sounded too good to pass up.

Moore is notorious for presenting a distorted view of things.

For example, his latest movie Sicko paints Canada's health care system in glowing terms, while glossing over our horrible wait list problem (in fact one person actually had to take his case to the supreme court, who ruled that the waiting lists were a violation of human rights.)

Never mind the fact that our per capita income is thousands less than the U.S., or that our unemployment rate is higher.

By the way, did you realize that Canada has a higher rate for 'victim' crimes? While the U.S. does have more murders, Canada makes up for it in terms of sexual assaults, muggings, and burglaries. (See: http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2004/pdf/hdr04_HDI.pdf table 23)

This doesn't necessarily mean Canada is worse than the U.S. Just different.

QUESTION: "When you are home, do you lock your doors?"

Yes. Most people do.

Here's another link that might help you understand the nature of Freedom of & TO Speech:

http://www.ala.org/ala/oif/iftoolkits/ifmanual/fifthedition/publiclibraries.htm

[/quote]
First of all, most of that article dealt with censorship based on content, something that I've already said I agree should not be done. (So

Secondly, it does have one relevant section (in the part titled 'formats')... yet here all it says is that libraries may handle material in a manner that may violate "intellectual standards". Without seeing what those standards are, we can't really say whether not carrying material freely available elsewhere is really violating those standards.

Lastly, I find it ironic that this article has the following quote: ...respond sensitively to any complaints .... Yet from reading your opening post, it sounds like the woman who complained (even if she was overreacting) certainly wasn't treaded with 'sensitivity', going by how you described your response to her ("Keep your eyes to yourself") Sounds like you're not taking the guidelines given in the documents you refer to.

Here's another link to Supreme Court decisions upon Foundations of Free Expression & The Right to Read Freely

http://www.ala.org/ala/oif/firstamen...courtcases.htm

Ok, skimming through this list, there are a lot of books that people have attempted to get removed from libraries over the years. In every one of those cases, I would have to say that I support keeping those books in the library. I do not want material censored according to content.

 

[Segnosaur]

I
Along with my many other duties, I am in charge of the collection development for my department.

Thanks for your description about library acquisitions. (I haven't bothered challenging KotA much about library acquistions but it was good to get a more professional view of what happens.) Lots of stuff I'd like to learn (although i can't blame you if you avoid this thread, as its gone on so long.) Like, how often do you find 'good' books (ones that you think the library really should have) not getting acquired just because there isn't enough money in the budget? And how much work goes in to providing 'balanced' opinions? (Would the library be obligated to stock things like creationist literature or holocaust denial books?)

 

[LibraryLady]

Thanks for your description about library acquisitions. (I haven't bothered challenging KotA much about library acquistions but it was good to get a more professional view of what happens.) Lots of stuff I'd like to learn (although i can't blame you if you avoid this thread, as its gone on so long.) Like, how often do you find 'good' books (ones that you think the library really should have) not getting acquired just because there isn't enough money in the budget? And how much work goes in to providing 'balanced' opinions? (Would the library be obligated to stock things like creationist literature or holocaust denial books?)

A couple of years ago there was an article in a local Jewish paper, The Baltimore Jewish Times, complaining that we carry copies of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. We didn't go into panic mode or pull the books from the shelves. Instead a member of the administration wrote a letter to the editor pointing out that books refuting the Protocols were right next to them on the shelf.

I personally when I order do make a huge effort to get all points of view. I have really developed the Atheist section in our department, for example. I know the other collection development people do the same. If a book has a good review and it is in demand, yes we will stock it. I am not sure if any 9/11 conspiracy theory books are here yet; I'm not sure what the subject heading would be.

At any rate, I'm at work and this is all off the top of my head. I could do another "Ask me about being a librarian" thread, but I'm not sure how much of an audience it would appeal to.

Did I mention that this job is huge fun?

ETA: I'm sorry KOTA hasn't had a chance to reply yet.

 

[LibraryLady]

I thought King of the Americas wanted to have a discussion about library acquisitions, so I posted what I thought would be interesting information for him. However, he doesn't seem to have replied. I'm sorry about that, because I thought it would be a back and forth exchange of thought.

 

[King of the Americas]

MY BAD LibraryLady, I have had like 20 minutes online in the past 4 days, I did a quick scan of the 2nd page and didn't see it, so I thought YOU hadn't replied.

In any case, I thank you for your time here, AND for your work as a Librarian. It sounds like your patrons are in good hands. I accept your stances and your credientials.

I was hoping you be good enough to answer some specific questions for the benefit of Segnosaur?

---

What, if any, duty do you have to fulfill an information/media request?

How available are these 'library alternatives', in your area?

If the your Library STOPPED circulating DVD's, CD's, and offering Internet access, would anyone be cut off from information and or news of current events?

Lasltly, have you been following this thread, if so decide who's stance would best serve all Library patrons, please...

Your point of view would be greatly appreciated.

 

[LibraryLady]

MY BAD LibraryLady, I have had like 20 minutes online in the past 4 days, I did a quick scan of the 2nd page and didn't see it, so I thought YOU hadn't replied.

In any case, I thank you for your time here, AND for your work as a Librarian. It sounds like your patrons are in good hands. I accept your stances and your credientials.

Thank you

I was hoping you be good enough to answer some specific questions for the benefit of Segnosaur?

For the benefit of both of you.

---

What, if any, duty do you have to fulfill an information/media request?

I have the responsibility of filling requests as far as is in my power. If the library does not own it, I will offer the patron an inter-library loan, which is free in state. If it is out of state, we start the pricing at $10, contingent on what the lending library charges us, and many patrons opt to try other means of getting the material. I am required by my job to do my best to obtain the material for the patron, in so far as it does not impinge on helping other patrons. In other words, if we don't have a book that a patron wants, and it would take hours of my time to get it, and that would mean many other patrons would not be helped, I need to balance my response.

How available are these 'library alternatives', in your area?

If the your Library STOPPED circulating DVD's, CD's, and offering Internet access, would anyone be cut off from information and or news of current events?

Am I right in reading this as one question? If for some very odd reason we had to stop circulating alternative media, our patrons would get their news and information the old fashioned way, from the large number of newspapers we get every day and from books. This is how it was ten years ago. Also there are several free newspapers in the area, including a daily called "The Baltimore Times."

Lasltly, have you been following this thread, if so decide who's stance would best serve all Library patrons, please...

Your point of view would be greatly appreciated.

I'd have to go with Segnosaurus on this one, because he seems balanced in his outlook and polite. If you look at my first posting to this thread I mentioned that I would have handled your situation quite differently, and frankly I cannot blame the older patron for her complaint against you. There are several reasons.

First: You were rude, as you tell the story. All patrons, unless they are menacing or out of control, deserve courteous service.

Second: The young man at the computer might want to learn that certain activities are best done in private.

Third: The female patron could have felt discriminated against by the fact that there were female nude pictures being publicly looked at, depending upon the kind of pictures they were. If it was the "Naked Maja" by Goya, then she doesn't have much of a case. But if it was the usual teenage boy ogling fodder, she was made to feel uncomfortable at her public library. If a co-worker of mine started looking at pictures on the computer that made me uncomfortable, even here in the library, I'd complain too.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

 

[Segnosaur]

A couple of years ago there was an article in a local Jewish paper, The Baltimore Jewish Times, complaining that we carry copies of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. We didn't go into panic mode or pull the books from the shelves. Instead a member of the administration wrote a letter to the editor pointing out that books refuting the Protocols were right next to them on the shelf.

I have to admit, I'd find it a little more difficult defend having "Protocols" in the collection than I would having something like Mein Kamph, or Das Kapital, not necessarily because the subject material is distasteful, but simply because its blatently false. (It does seem a little strange having a library, supposedly a source of knowledge, deliberately stocking something containing anti-knowledge.)

But then, I do recognize that there is a slippery slope argument, plus for people who are NOT anti-semitic (hopefully the majority of people) it can be useful to have an example of 'bad' literature to learn from. So, I agree with your administration's actions.

 

[Segnosaur]

Am I right in reading this as one question? If for some very odd reason we had to stop circulating alternative media, our patrons would get their news and information the old fashioned way, from the large number of newspapers we get every day and from books. This is how it was ten years ago. Also there are several free newspapers in the area, including a daily called "The Baltimore Times."

This was pretty much my argument as well (although I was including things like free TV stations and radio as well).

I'd have to go with Segnosaurus on this one, because he seems balanced in his outlook and polite.

I was actually polite? Guess there's a first time for everything.

Third: The female patron could have felt discriminated against by the fact that there were female nude pictures being publicly looked at, depending upon the kind of pictures they were. If it was the "Naked Maja" by Goya, then she doesn't have much of a case. But if it was the usual teenage boy ogling fodder, she was made to feel uncomfortable at her public library. If a co-worker of mine started looking at pictures on the computer that made me uncomfortable, even here in the library, I'd complain too.

A few years ago, they put internet filters on the computers here in the Ottawa public library. I believe part of the reason for that is that many of the (I assume) female employees were continually having to deal with the internet computers showing pr0n.

 

[LibraryLady]

I have to admit, I'd find it a little more difficult defend having "Protocols" in the collection than I would having something like Mein Kamph, or Das Kapital, not necessarily because the subject material is distasteful, but simply because its blatently false. (It does seem a little strange having a library, supposedly a source of knowledge, deliberately stocking something containing anti-knowledge.)

But then, I do recognize that there is a slippery slope argument, plus for people who are NOT anti-semitic (hopefully the majority of people) it can be useful to have an example of 'bad' literature to learn from. So, I agree with your administration's actions.

Imagine reading, for example, The Fixer, by Bernard Malamud, and not having an understanding of the Protocols. It wouldn't make much sense. It's important to have knowledge of evil writings, especially the untrue ones. Otherwise, they can be presented as new all over again, and perhaps impress some people. Education.