Libertarian Socialism: An Oxymoron?

[NWO Sentryman]

You forgot to include Sweden, Norway, and the Kibbutz movement. There are different forms of socialism, y'know.

There was a good reason article on Sweden, and When he was sane, Alex Libman did give a good summary of Norway.

Scandinavia and the Kibbutz movement did allow private property and trade, which are incompatible with Socialism.

 

[drkitten]

Scandinavia and the Kibbutz movement did allow private property and trade, which are incompatible with [my strawman version of]Socialism.

So you understand neither libertarianism nor socialism, and you wonder why you can't reconcile them.

 

[Cleon]

There was a good reason article on Sweden, and When he was sane, Alex Libman did give a good summary of Norway.

No...The fact that you agreed with his conclusions didn't make his bizarre screeds "good."

Scandinavia and the Kibbutz movement did allow private property and trade,

Well, so did the USSR, so does Cuba, so does North Korea, and so does China. So your point is still invalid.

which are incompatible with Socialism.

And that's not remotely accurate. Again, different forms of socialism.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

So you understand neither libertarianism nor socialism, and you wonder why you can't reconcile them.

Libertarianism can be best described by Ron Paul.

Socialism is in MArx's words, a "dictatorship of the proletariat", which was ill defined IMO, as the remnants of the Russian and Chinese working classes were part of the Communist Party.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

No...The fact that you agreed with his conclusions didn't make his bizarre screeds "good."

Well, so did the USSR, so does Cuba, so does North Korea, and so does China. So your point is still invalid.

And that's not remotely accurate. Again, different forms of socialism.

I was referring to Mr Libman BEFORE he went insane. When he went insane he was a completely different man. he called it "reductio ad norwayum"

My definition of Socialism is that of marx.

In his "ten planks" he left blueprints, knowingly or otherwise, for a totalitarian state.

 

[Cleon]

Libertarianism can be best described by Ron Paul.

Heh. No.

Socialism is in MArx's words, a "dictatorship of the proletariat", which was ill defined IMO, as the remnants of the Russian and Chinese working classes were part of the Communist Party.

Marx didn't invent the concept of socialism, and never had a monopoly on the idea. Again...There are different types of socialism. Why you cannot accept this very simple fact, I have no idea, but I'd wager ideology factors into it.

 

[drkitten]

Libertarianism can be best described by Ron Paul.

Socialism is in MArx's words, a "dictatorship of the proletariat", which was ill defined IMO, as the remnants of the Russian and Chinese working classes were part of the Communist Party.

So you understand neither libertarianism nor socialism. There are lots of different versions of both.

 

[Cleon]

I was referring to Mr Libman BEFORE he went insane.

I have yet to see evidence that such a period existed.

My definition of Socialism is that of marx.

Well, first of all, I've read Marx, and no, it isn't.

Second, as I just posted, Marx didn't invent the idea, and while Marxism is a type of socialism, it's not the only form of socialism.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

Libertarianism - Collins dictionary:

n a person who believes in freedom of thought and action, adj believing in freedom of thought and action,

Basically an individualist

Socialism - Again, Collins

n a political and economic theory or system in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by the community collectively, usually through the state,

A collectivist.

so how can someone be an individualist collectivist?

 

[Cleon]

Socialism - Again, Collins

So now you've presented two completely different definitions of socialism, thus illustrating my point nicely.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

So now you've presented two completely different definitions of socialism, thus illustrating my point nicely.

I agree, but the general Strand seems to be of the Marxist variant. They also seem to overlap a lot.

 

[drkitten]

Libertarianism - Collins dictionary:



Basically an individualist

Wrong. A person who believes in "freedom" may not be an individualist; as a simple counterexample, almost any rationalist will believe that they have freely assented to the uniquely correct view, and anyone who individually withholds consent is wrong by definition.

Socialism - Again, Collins

A collectivist.

And again, wrong. A person who believes in collective ownership does not necessarily believe in collective behavior. An obvious example would be any group of people who have pooled their money to buy a vacation condominium and time-share it.

so how can someone be an individualist collectivist?

Well, we've already established that "libertarian socialist" does not mean "individualist collectivist," so the question is moot.

But there are lots of examples of religious communities such as monasteries that are individualist collectivist. The individuals choose freely to submit to a shared collection of rules that are given to them by some power outside of the collection (such as the Bible).

So, you're wrong in at least three ways. Might I suggest learning something about the words you use?

 

[NWO Sentryman]

Apples and Oranges. Money pooling is one thing, but complete forefiture of your property to the Collective is another.

The Monastery is also a false analogy. You answer to the abbot or the superior monks. It is not an egalitarian situation.

 

[drkitten]

Apples and Oranges. Money pooling is one thing, but complete forefiture of your property to the Collective is another.

Which illustrates, again, that you don't understand socialism.

Because the fact that the umbrella term "socialist" covers both groups is one of the points that has been made to you several times in this thread alone.

 

[Cleon]

I agree, but the general Strand seems to be of the Marxist variant. They also seem to overlap a lot.

Except for Norway, Sweden, the Kibbutzim, and so on.

So...Again, your point is invalid.

 

[drkitten]

The Monastery is also a false analogy. You answer to the abbot or the superior monks. It is not an egalitarian situation.

And we add "monastery" to the list of things you don't understand. Not all monasteries are abbeys, and similarly not all monasteries have abbots (or superior monks).

Indeed, the idea of establishing monasteries without superior monks as a type of reform is something that comes up all the time (every few hundred years) in eccesiastical history. It rarely lasted for very long, because there seems to be some element in human nature that cause some people to want to give orders and others to avoid responsibility....

 

[NWO Sentryman]

I admit i am incorrect in my description of Socialism, but i was merely noting the most prevalent variants.

 

[drkitten]

I admit i am incorrect in my description of Socialism, but i was merely noting the most prevalent variants.

Goodness me.

Who would have thought that a fringe belief like "libertarian socialism" would not be among the "most prevalent variants"?

 

[NWO Sentryman]

Goodness me.

Who would have thought that a fringe belief like "libertarian socialism" would not be among the "most prevalent variants"?

If you mean Chomskyites, then yes it is a prevalent belief.

 

[drkitten]

If you mean Chomskyites, then yes it is a prevalent belief.

Then you're demonstrably not familiar with the most prevalent variants of socialism.