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Liberal Fallacies

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Why "is properly considered a conservative position" (note the passive voice)?
I can't parse this question. Did you leave something out?

If you mean why is reactionary properly considered a part of conservative I would say because that's how the term is conventionally used. You are suggesting that conservative refers only to a defense of established policy. I disagree with this definition.

You apparently intend some definition of "conservative" by example, but I don't see it.
I said it explicitly: a broad definition of conservative should include reactionary positions. In other words, your definition that it only involves protecting established policy doesn't work. It's incomplete.

How long must a policy be in place before a defense qualifies as "conservative"? If it's not duration, what?
You are the one arguing for that definition. It is not duration. Nor is it necessarily about defense or opposition to currently established policy. The difference between conservatism and progressivism, I think, has to be about a broader sense of direction.

Conservatives generally want to preserve or return to an earlier state, while progressives want policies to progress or advance.

Does this matter? Why not just discuss the merits of markets in pension services (or schooling, or medical care) versus provision of services by a State enterprise?
Again, I don't understand what you're asking. You offered an exceptionally narrow definition of conservatism. I take issue with that definition as being at best incomplete.
 
He was trying to appear to be strong by defying the US. And WMD are pretty much "strong" incarnate.

My understanding was to save face to some elements of the Arab world. He had one of the largest armies in the world and he was otherwise being pushed around like a rag doll by the US and UN. That and I think he really believed that it was unlikely that the US would invade and he wanted to appear to be, in part, master of his destiny and a bad ass in the middle east. Clearly he knew what the inspectors knew when it came to WMD, he was a toothless tiger. I think he guessed badly that G.W. Bush would actually look at the facts as they were and not his (Saddam's) silly games.

Make no mistake, Saddam was playing a most dangerous game and he lost as spectacularly as he could.
Your two points have to be the case, but he also must have realised that he was looking as if he was *working* on *acquiring* the capability, not that he *had* the capability.

It's just I cant see how he thought it would do anything but harm him.

Trying to look as if you are *attempting* to make yourself stronger seems a bad choice if you are also weak and look weak, whilst being known for being vicious.
 
I understood from what I read of the CIA guy who talked with Hussein before his trial that he wanted to deter the Iranians.

But one does that by pretending to have *working* weapons, not pretending to have a project to acquire them, which encourages a pre-emptive strike.

But again he was bluffing, so as has been said upthread he must have had something in mind.
 
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Flat false. It is most definitely true. Further, see the Congressional hearings on the intelligence failures that led to the war (David Kay testimony). Further, see the Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (CounterPunch, feb. 2003) broadside against the war that argued against the war on the basis of the cost in allied lives from chemical weapons.Further, Amb. Wilson's investigation reinforced (NOT undermined) the CIA conclusion that Iraq sought refined uranium ore in Niger.

I think perhaps your claim is that the CIA did not change its position on the threat of WMDs in Iraq, but that is not the full story, of course. (And that's a debatable point anyway. Some people in the CIA certainly had changed their minds.)

Hans Blix's reports prior to the invasion said that while Iraq wasn't as proactively helpful as the exiting government of South Africa had been (a different situation since the white government knew they were essentially handing everything over to a post-apartheid government), they were complying with UNMOVIC requests and he found no evidence of WMDs.

The IAEA issued similar reports wrt the nuclear weapons program in Iraq.

Our actual knowledge of the threat posed by Iraq did change substantially prior to the invasion in 2003. Your claim that there was no change since the Clinton administration is not true.

If I have some time I'll look up the UNMOVIC and IAEA reports issued in that time period. The fact the Bush administration continued quoting CIA documents from the early to mid 1990s doesn't mean that's the only information that was available.

ETA: Here's a summary of events including some descriptions of reports given by Blix and Baradei. UN inspectors were back in Iraq from November 2002 to shortly before the invasion in March of 2003. Iraq's cooperation varied, but the information we had was definitely not exactly the same as it had been since the 1990s as you claimed.
 
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But again he was bluffing, so as has been said upthread he must have had something in mind.

I think the bluff was as much for domestic consumption as anything. He wanted to keep authority in Iraq by pretending to be a lot stronger than he was. And remember, a big part of his opposition were far more religiously zealous and at least as anti-US. He probably figured he had nothing to lose. If he were perceived as weak within his country it would be no different to him than if his country were invaded by the U.S. And he was probably hoping that Bush was only bluffing on his side in order to get the UN inspectors back into Iraq. I think Saddam was trying to comply as minimally as possible to avert serious international consequences but not enough to be perceived as weak in his own country.

Remember too, that while we consider him the dictator of Iraq, there were substantial portions of Iraq that he didn't control at all. From his side, he must have perceived his position as tenuous.
 
Your two points have to be the case, but he also must have realised that he was looking as if he was *working* on *acquiring* the capability, not that he *had* the capability.

It's just I cant see how he thought it would do anything but harm him.

Trying to look as if you are *attempting* to make yourself stronger seems a bad choice if you are also weak and look weak, whilst being known for being vicious.
Fair points. I don't give Saddam much credit though when it comes to international tactics and strategy. He was most effective at being a shrewd megalomaniac and he knew he could command some support for those who would buy his cheap oil (it could have worked). IMO he was simply out of his element and lacked any assistance willing or able to get him to see the error of his ways. His narcissism didn't help much.

Did you see the Last King of Scotland? If the movie is to believed Amin ejects foreign journalists even though his aids warn him that the move would have very bad political ramifications.

I suspect there are parallels between the two.
 
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Why "is properly considered a conservative position" (note the passive voice)?
I can't parse this question. Did you leave something out?
. Elision. "Why (do you say) 'is properly considered'."
If you mean why is reactionary properly considered a part of conservative I would say because that's how the term is conventionally used. You are suggesting that conservative refers only to a defense of established policy. I disagree with this definition.
Here's your source:
re·ac·tion noun \rē-ˈak-shən\
Definition of REACTION
1a : the act or process or an instance of reacting b : resistance or opposition to a force, influence, or movement; especially : tendency toward a former and usually outmoded political or social order or policy.
So "former...policy". Conservative. Defense of the established order. Your definition is redundant.
...The difference between conservatism and progressivism, I think, has to be about a broader sense of direction.

Conservatives generally want to preserve or return to an earlier state, while progressives want policies to progress or advance.
"Change". But a free market in pension services, education services, or mail delivery services is "change". And I'd call it "advance" or "progress".
 
I think perhaps your claim is that the CIA did not change its position on the threat of WMDs in Iraq, but that is not the full story, of course. (And that's a debatable point anyway. Some people in the CIA certainly had changed their minds.)
I said the CIA position did not change between the Clinton administration and the Bush II administration. That's easy to support.
 
But one does that by pretending to have *working* weapons, not pretending to have a project to acquire them, which encourages a pre-emptive strike.
Here. "High Confidence:...Iraq possesses proscribed chemical and biological weapons and missiles."
You can't sensibly rebut what you don't read.
 
I said the CIA position did not change between the Clinton administration and the Bush II administration.

No. You said, "The intelligence did not change between the Clinton aadministration and the Bush II administration."

That statement is false.

There was simply no need for Bush to ignore the new information and rely on 10+ year old CIA reports and statements from unreliable sources (mostly guys who hadn't been in country in years).

As Blix said, if the Bush administration had any information not available to the UN, he should have given it to them and supported continued on-the-ground verification of this information.

The inspection program ended only because of the invasion.
 
Here's your source:

No. Here is my source:

Merriam Webster said:
Definition of REACTIONARY

: relating to, marked by, or favoring reaction; especially : ultraconservative in politics

This is the conventional usage of the term reactionary. If you're using it in the context of the politics, it is a subset of conservatism.

Again, I reject your definition that conservative only refers to defense of established policy.
 
No. You said, "The intelligence did not change between the Clinton aadministration and the Bush II administration."
A distinction witout a difference. "Intelligence" = "CIA".
There was simply no need for Bush to ignore the new information and rely on 10+ year old CIA reports and statements from unreliable sources (mostly guys who hadn't been in country in years).
The intelligence (CIA position) did not change. The 2002 NIE expressed "high confidence" that Iraq had chemical and biological WMD. That assessment had not changed from the days of the Clinton administration.
 
Generally speaking in international law, invading another country without explicit UN approval is illegal unless that country has attacked you first.

Not quite. International law & UN charter are two different things. There are two cases where the UN charter allows force - self-defense, and after UN authorization of force (see chap VII, sect 39). But self defense may extend to allies, and may involve first strike in case of potential imminent attack (see 'Caroline Test'). International law on the matter generally aligned with this concept, is far more difficult to describe accurately.

In the case of the US&UK vs Iraq 2003, the US&UK argue in two ways. That Iraq's refusal to abide by their agreement to permit unrestricted UN inspections was a direct threat to the US & allies. Also that since Iraq violated it's 1st gulf war cease-fire agreements, that this was a continuation of the 1st war, where the 1998 UN resolution permitting force was the controlling document.

Note that international law (not UN charter) recognize belligerence (such as shooting at no-fly jets) as an act suspending peace treaties. For example it was determined that Nazi German belligerence in the 1940s suspended the 1919 Versailles Treaty.

As a practical matter, Israel didn't (and couldn't) ask for permission for the 7 day war, US didn't ask permission to invade Angola nor bomb Kaddafi in the 1980s, Russia didn't ask permission to attack Chechins or Georgia. Iran/Iraq didn't get authorization for their war. Iraq didn't ask permission to invade Kuwait. So these UN charter rules wrt war are more often exercised by violation than adherence.

If Saddam had been involved in 9-11 I'd say it qualifies as a legitimate reason to attack Iraq.

Certainly, but that was never the Administration's case.

By violating a 1991 cease-fire agreement (ejecting inspectors, violating the no-fly zone), Iraq created a resumption of hostilities. The US&UK argue the preceding authorization of force persisted. More arguable - that the failure to abide by inspection agreements meant to find/destroy WMD made Iraq an imminent threat to US&Allies.

I think the US&UK are safe wrt to international law and courts, but are on the very edge wrt UN charter violations. Other nations have been far over that edge w/o actions being take.

In practical terms this doesn't limit any of the permanent members of the US security counsel because they get a veto over any declaration an invasion is illegal.

The UNSC is not a court, but they oddly do condemn acts and make claims that some violate international law; w/o seeking prosecution. But Kofi Annan could bring a case at the International Court of Justice or International criminal Court (neither is UN) claiming the US was guilty and the UNSC has no veto power there. He could not eject the US or UK from the UN since that requires a UNSC vote. He could I believe suspend US & UK general assembly voting privileges (not on the SC).


An actively in progress genocide would be not only a valid reason but would demand action. this is why many countries, including the US, were reluctant to acknowledge Rwanda as a genocide until after the fact. Doing so would have required them to send troops to help stop the genocide. If the US had attacked while Saddam was actively slaughtering Kurds it would have met this test IMO

No. The UN in 1948 passed a Convention against Genocide (Resolution 260 (III)) which then becomes part of international law. However the UN charter specifically states (chap I, art 2 , pp 7)
Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll.

So the genocide has to threaten international peace (chap VII) before the UNSC can act w/ force.

In Rwanda, w/ the governments agreement, the UN sent observers and later, after a peace treaty was signed, a small "assistance mission" to help parties implement peace. Then after some major setbacks it decreased the peacekeepers and created an arms embargo. Only then with violence spilling over borders did the UNSC authorize creation of a force under chap VII, strictly for humanitarian purposes wrt refugees.

Serbia/Kosovo/Yugoslavia resolution also included multinational peace and refugees before force was authorized.

So in the unlikely event you can keep genocide within your own borders - then the UN will issue feckless statements and do little.

The problem, I think, is that US Congress declaring genocide compels action politically and morally - not via UN or law.
 
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