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Let's talk about Demons.

catsmate said:
I suggest you keep an eye on him; he may simply be harmlessly deluded but there may be a larger problem in the offing.
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Yes well I did caution him that if he chases an illness causing demon out, and tells the exorcised they can dispense with medical treatment, and the person has problems or dies he could be in strife. His response? ..... No he has that covered because he checks it out with God first.:boggled:
 
kayle said:
but are they excorcists certified? or authorised. or both.

you see, I only trust certified astrologists, psychics, dowsers and homeopaths. (sad, but in my country all homeopaths are medical persons. this, of course, ensures they see real troubles but the discredit...)
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Hi kayle and welcome to the forum.

Yes that certification / authorization thing is a tricky one. Who does the certification / authorization anyway and how do they test it?
 
Slowvehicle said:
It almost seems as if you think that "demons" actually exist...

...how droll.
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Should that not be a "T" as the initial letter of the last word?

So absurdly nonsensical as to be either parody or trolling. Those demons are so real...

Christ, even my 6 year old ain't that stoopid.

Shiner said:
Please explain it for me. I'm inclined to disagree with you strongly at the moment.
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The bible says demons exist.
God dictated the bible.
God is infallible.

Rinse & repeat.
 
The Atheist said:
Should that not be a "T" as the initial letter of the last word?

So absurdly nonsensical as to be either parody or trolling. Those demons are so real...

Christ, even my 6 year old ain't that stoopid.
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As I said before, belief in demons isn't a fringe doctrine, only adhered to by a few at the crazy end of the Christian spectrum. It is a mainstream belief. There are quite a few Christians on the planet, hence there are quite a few people who believe in demons. If you take the Bible seriously - and many millions do - then you have to take demons seriously as well.
 
Thor 2 said:
So how do you go about testing to determine if illness or demonic possession The Big Dog.
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I'd like to know that too. As far as I can see, demonic possession and mental illness are alternative explanations for the same phenomenon. I can certainly understand why our ancestors, confronted by someone with schizophrenia say, would come up with the demonic possession explanation, just as I understand why they came up with the volcano god explanation for rumbling mountains. Both are adequate explanations, they just didn't turn out to be the correct ones. I cannot understand at all how someone today can accept both explanations for aberrant behaviour, or distinguish which cases of it are due to which explanation.
 
Pixel42 said:
I'd like to know that too. As far as I can see, demonic possession and mental illness are alternative explanations for the same phenomenon. I can certainly understand why our ancestors, confronted by someone with schizophrenia say, would come up with the demonic possession explanation, just as I understand why they came up with the volcano god explanation for rumbling mountains. Both are adequate explanations, they just didn't turn out to be the correct ones. I cannot understand at all how someone today can accept both explanations for aberrant behaviour, or distinguish which cases of it are due to which explanation.
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Yes it sure is a tricky one Pixel.

Can you imagine a priest being confronted by someone who claims to be possessed by a demon and asking for exorcism. Will that priest make some sort of assessment himself, (some test with holy water perhaps), or will he go and see a shrink and ask his opinion? Boy I'd like to be a fly on the wall when he askes the shrink that question.:D
 
Resume said:
Yes, I am.


If a person is that much a danger to themselves and/or others, I think it would be my duty as a human being to get them the most efficacious help possible in the most efficient manner. A side trip to the corner exorcist isn't any of those things



It seems you are less concerned with your hypothetical disturbed individual and more concerned with the vocabulary skeptics use to describe demons and demonic possession. Superstitious retrograde nonsense is a fine descriptor; idiotic is your modifier.
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Edited by kmortis: 
Removed to comply with Rule 12 and Rule 0
You would rather bask in ideological purity rather than take a brief "side trip" to secure consent to subsequent psychiatric treatment.

If someone is willing to seek psychiatric treatment and the only cost is a brief side trip, the outcome of the psychiatric and/or psychological treatment (counselling) is likely to be better, because of consent and willingness. As opposed to seeking involuntary commitment (and that assumes it's available, based on the medico-legal burden in one's jurisdiction).
 
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Edited by kmortis: 
Removed previously moderated content and response to same


You would rather bask in ideological purity rather than take a brief "side trip" to secure consent to subsequent psychiatric treatment.
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If a person is suffering chest pains, you don't take a brief side trip to the homeopaths, you go to the emergency room.

If someone is willing to seek psychiatric treatment and the only cost is a brief side trip, the outcome of the psychiatric and/or psychological treatment (counselling) is likely to be better, because of consent and willingness.
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A dangerously delusional person requires proper and immediate attention. Been there, seen that.


ETA: If after evaluation, a medical professional determined an exorcism might be a harmless placebo, meh who cares. But I would doubt such a "treatment" would be recommended.
 
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arthwollipot said:
As I said before, belief in demons isn't a fringe doctrine, only adhered to by a few at the crazy end of the Christian spectrum. It is a mainstream belief.
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Considering that my original point was the legitimacy of exorcism in "progressive"churches, and I'd posted details from official Catholic sites, quoting senior clerics of the RCC, your answer to my non-question is redundant.


arthwollipot said:
There are quite a few Christians on the planet, hence there are quite a few people who believe in demons. If you take the Bible seriously - and many millions do - then you have to take demons seriously as well.
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Ditto - you are re-stating points already made.

The fact that the beliefs are legitimate in the context of their doctrine is irrelevant - the idea that demons or the sky-daddy exist is absurd.
 
The Atheist said:
Ditto - you are re-stating points already made.
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They are points that I felt had not been adequately addressed.

The Atheist said:
The fact that the beliefs are legitimate in the context of their doctrine is irrelevant - the idea that demons or the sky-daddy exist is absurd.
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I see a lot of incredulity that Christians could still believe in demons - more so than the incredulity that they believe in the Resurrection, and this is something I have seen repeatedly. My point was that belief in demons is only as absurd as any other Christian belief and there is little to justify additional incredulity. My other point is that lifelong atheists don't seem to understand the role that demons play in Christian belief, so I indulged in a little explanation from personal experience in order to aid that understanding, so as to help avoid straw arguments later.
 
Well here's another thing about demons that niggles away at me. Well it is about all the soul possessing man like creations God has made if we look at Christian belief.

OK, we start of with God who was there from the start. He was always the three part guy according to Catholicism as I have read, so we can't look at Jesus as one of his creations.

God makes some angels first I guess. He makes them all perfect of course, (as this is the only way he can do things), but one of them turns out not perfect and jumps ship.

Yes it's the Devil I'm talking about here who sets up shop in Hell and then gets some demons to help him out. Now where did the demons come from? Did the Devil make them or were they also failed creations by God?

God's strike rate is not looking good as he goes on the make man, (again perfect and in his own image), who rebels also and from that time on all the new souls are tainted. Well not quite because God gets his act together when he creates Mary. After Mary he throws away the mould, and goes back to creating defective souls again.

All of this doesn't look good on God's record.:confused:
 
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