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Let's talk about Demons.

epeeist said:
What I was getting at in my last sentence was not questioning the exorcist's belief, but the actions of someone e.g. with no belief in demons at all who had a friend or family member who believed and wanted an exorcism.

So long as the exorcism wasn't physically harmful (like some non-RC versions are, people have died!) it might arguably be better for the person not to discourage them and not to lecture them about atheism or skepticism or whatever unless/until they're better, assuming there is a placebo effect on their mental state in a positive way?

But that's just an idle thought based on memory of something said in a movie.
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You see, thing is, there are no demons. If someone believes they are possessed by demons, they do indeed have a problem, and one that needs to be addressed by scientific medicine, not some superstitious retrograde nonsense.
 
Resume said:
You see, thing is, there are no demons. If someone believes they are possessed by demons, they do indeed have a problem, and one that needs to be addressed by scientific medicine, not some superstitious retrograde nonsense.
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And not have the belief reinforced by other delusional people.
 
fagin said:
When my son was born (Damon), we got flowers and a card from a friend which said "Congratulations on the birth of Demon."
My wife freaked out a bit.

As it happens he has grown up to be a decent sensible guy. So he's probably not an actual, real demon.
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Damien Evans said:
That reminds me of a story my mum told me. Apparently my pa watched The Omen the day before I was born, then found out my name was Damien.:)
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I've had to tell people a few times it's a different spelling and he's not evil.

I'm an F1 fan (and was a massive Graham Hill fan). I kept and eye on young Damon when he was a motor cycle racer and punk rocker, and really liked the name. Turns out, having met him once, he's a really nice guy as well.

And in my defence, my son was born before he became world champion.
 
Resume said:
If someone believes they are possessed by demons, they do indeed have a problem, and one that needs to be addressed by scientific medicine
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That is exactly what the Catholics say:

The solemn exorcism, called "a major exorcism," can be performed only by a priest and with the permission of the bishop. The priest must proceed with prudence, strictly observing the rules established by the Church. Exorcism is directed at the expulsion of demons or to the liberation from demonic possession through the spiritual authority which Jesus entrusted to his Church. Illness, especially psychological illness, is a very different matter; treating this is the concern of medical science. Therefore, before an exorcism is performed, it is important to ascertain that one is dealing with the presence of the Evil One, and not an illness.
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fagin said:
I've had to tell people a few times it's a different spelling and he's not evil.

I'm an F1 fan (and was a massive Graham Hill fan). I kept and eye on young Damon when he was a motor cycle racer and punk rocker, and really liked the name. Turns out, having met him once, he's a really nice guy as well.

And in my defence, my son was born before he became world champion.
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On an ephemerally related note, I always found it amusing that the little devil boy in The Omen and the psychiatrist-priest in The Exorcist are both named Damien. Weird coincidence? Or the Omen screenwriter (working in 1973-75) stealing the name from the Exorcist novel (1971)?!

I now return you to your regularly scheduled unsolvable religious debate.
 
Resume said:
You see, thing is, there are no demons. If someone believes they are possessed by demons, they do indeed have a problem, and one that needs to be addressed by scientific medicine, not some superstitious retrograde nonsense.
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You're not getting my point.

Let's say A, a friend or family member, believes that their drug abuse, violence (to themselves and others) and otherwise dangerous and criminal behaviour is influenced by possession. They're happy to get psychiatric and psychological treatment after an exorcism which will give them comfort but they need you to drive them.

Do you push them to not get an exorcism, refuse to drive them, telling them they're indulging in "superstitious retrograde nonsense", knowing that they will then refuse to do anything to help themselves? Or do you tell them that while as they know you don't share their beliefs, you will help them so long as they promise to also get psychiatric and psychological treatment? And do you refrain from lecturing them on the drive about how idiotically superstitious they are, in your view?
 
Resume said:
Not exactly.


This is delusional.
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you think that it is delusional to determine whether one is dealing with an illness before performing an exorcism?

Huh.

I am going to have to go ahead and kinda disagree.
 
The Big Dog said:
you think that it is delusional to determine whether one is dealing with an illness before performing an exorcism?

Huh.

I am going to have to go ahead and kinda disagree.
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OK, now you're being willfully obtuse, and you know it.

He meant that it is delusional to think there is "an Evil One." If someone believes they are possessed by Satan, they are, de facto, deluded. Considering an exorcism at all is ridiculous.
 
epeeist said:
You're not getting my point.

Let's say A, a friend or family member, believes that their drug abuse, violence (to themselves and others) and otherwise dangerous and criminal behaviour is influenced by possession. They're happy to get psychiatric and psychological treatment after an exorcism which will give them comfort but they need you to drive them.

Do you push them to not get an exorcism, refuse to drive them, telling them they're indulging in "superstitious retrograde nonsense", knowing that they will then refuse to do anything to help themselves? Or do you tell them that while as they know you don't share their beliefs, you will help them so long as they promise to also get psychiatric and psychological treatment? And do you refrain from lecturing them on the drive about how idiotically superstitious they are, in your view?
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It's a tough call. If the person is dependent on such props then it would help them. Brains are weird.
 
The Big Dog said:
you think that it is delusional to determine whether one is dealing with an illness before performing an exorcism?

Huh.

I am going to have to go ahead and kinda disagree.
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Continuing to sidestep, I see.

What is delusional is pretending that any mental illness is due to "the Evil One", or any other imaginary entity.
 
It's also a good idea to determine whether the volcano is due to hot magma welling up through the earth's crust before sacrificing a virgin to the volcano god.
 
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And then there are churches that try to exorcise the demons of cerebral palsy from the daughter of one of their members. Daughter was a schoolmate of mine.

It need not be said that there was no improvement.
 
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