• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Let's talk about Demons.

The Atheist said:
The RCC - considered by some to be progressive, has a huge number of ordained exorcists.
Click to expand...

The reply

theprestige said:
Define "a huge number". Cite RCC documents supporting this number.
Click to expand...

You respond to theprestige

Darat said:
According to the RCC (by far the largest Christian sect, with claims of a membership of 1.2 billion) anyone with faith can perform an exorcism, but there is also a form of exorcism that can only be carried out by an ordained RC priest, that's called a solemn exorcism.

That would mean there are - in the RCC's view - 1.2 billion people who can perform an exorcism and it's around (if my recollection is correct) 400,000 priests that could perform a solemn exorcism. I think 1.2 billion is a "huge number" of people.
Click to expand...

Darat said:
Rule of As such!

protip: Argue against what someone posts rather than make up positions they haven't taken.
Click to expand...

protip: you might actually want to go back and review the posts to which you were replying before shooting off a snarky reply.
 
The Big Dog said:
The reply



You respond to theprestige





protip: you might actually want to go back and review the posts to which you were replying before shooting off a snarky reply.
Click to expand...

As you quoted I never claimed that there were 1.2 billion ordained exorcists, that only exists in your imagination, like demons and gods.


Protip - when trying to walk back a strawman best not to post the evidence that shows you tried to use a strawman...
 
Darat said:
As you quoted I never claimed that there were 1.2 billion ordained exorcists, that only exists in your imagination, like demons and gods.


Protip - when trying to walk back a strawman best not to post the evidence that shows you tried to use a strawman...
Click to expand...

Oh dear... My imagination??? a curious personal attack.

Your "huge number" claim appears to be a complete non sequitor.

Unfortunate all the way around.
 
epeeist said:
I'm coming from RC perspective.

If someone believes in God, and in baptism rejects satan and his works and empty promises (which is arguably rejecting evil generally not necessarily an anthropomorphized evil entity) I don't see it as such a stretch given those beliefs that, in very rare cases, someone may be spiritually affected in a way that they may benefit from an exorcism.

Even if one is not a believer, one may believe in a placebo effect...(I recall some discussion of that in the original Exorcist movie).
Click to expand...
I can see that to some degree as excusing the afflicted, but not the exorcists themselves, who must, one presumes, truly believe in demons if they are not acting in bad faith.
 
bruto said:
I can see that to some degree as excusing the afflicted, but not the exorcists themselves, who must, one presumes, truly believe in demons if they are not acting in bad faith.
Click to expand...


As I have mentioned on other threads, I have a a relatively fundie nephew, who drives out demons as part of his "ministry".

He vividly describes demons as real entities, who talk in a different voice to the afflicted one, as they are prised out of the body.
 
Last edited:
The Big Dog said:
Oh dear... My imagination??? a curious personal attack.

Your "huge number" claim appears to be a complete non sequitor.

Unfortunate all the way around.
Click to expand...


If I read your tone correctly you seem to dismissive about the RCC's participation in exorcisms today.

So were do you stand on the subject of demons and exorcism The Big Dog?
 
Thor 2 said:
If I read your tone correctly you seem to dismissive about the RCC's participation in exorcisms today.

So were do you stand on the subject of demons and exorcism The Big Dog?
Click to expand...

That the RCC does not have a huge number or ordained exorcists by any measure, that is where I stand.
 
In the Old Testament, not many Demons were cast out of the Jews...because they were Jews. And thew Jews got along just fine with Demons. But in New Testament, Demons are cast out of Christians (or potential Christians) all the time, for they are worth the saving - and they are just better people (ya' know...the kind of better people who don't kill God and stuff like the Jews). So, the better People do well when Demons are cast out.

Hey...Don't blame me for this repugnant sentiment, I'm just representing what's in the New Testament.
 
Last edited:
The Great Zaganza said:
I believe all this exorcising is just a fad: I got a subscription to an exorcising club, but I hardly ever go, and when I do it's mostly empty with only one or two seemingly possessed working out.
Click to expand...
That sounds like you were at a Planet Faithless. Their business model is actually based on people not really doing much exorcising. There's even a Monk Alarm customers can sound if someone seems to be taking religious/supernatural stuff too seriously.
 
MostlyDead said:
Addressing the question in the OP, some view demons as the personification (demonification?) of desire or obsession to do evil. They're allegorical, like the creation story. Jesus (the Word) and his followers (speaking the Word) would drive out the desire to do evil out of the 'possessed'.
Click to expand...
In the church I went to, demons were both a metaphorical personification of evil desires and obsessions, and actual real entities that caused these desires. People would talk about the demon of smoking, or the demon of overeating, as well as demons for lust and violence. When someone did something they regret, it was because a demon of that thing possessed them. And it was up to believers - all believers, not just the ordained (see eg. Mark 16:16-18) - to cast the demons out.

This is a thing that I think a lot of lifelong atheists - those with no experience of Christianity at all - have some trouble with: demons are not a fringe belief. Demons are completely mainstream. According to almost all versions of Christianity, demons are real things that can possess people and cause them to sin. The more liberal, progressive churches see them as metaphor for perfectly normal (though undesirable) human traits and choices, while those on the more conservative end see them as completely literal entities. Regardless, belief in demons is utterly mainstream.
 
Delvo said:
That sounds like you were at a Planet Faithless. Their business model is actually based on people not really doing much exorcising. There's even a Monk Alarm customers can sound if someone seems to be taking religious/supernatural stuff too seriously.
Click to expand...

...you raise the specter of Aerobic Exorcism:

"Demons, be...GONE (two, three)
Feel the BURN (two, three)!
Now, on the left side..."
 
Darat said:
Rule of As such!

protip: Argue against what someone posts rather than make up positions they haven't taken.
Click to expand...
At the risk of actually bringing facts into the discussion you're kinda right. But it's complicated...

It comes down to baptism. Now within the RCC baptism is usually only performed by ordained clergy (deacon or higher) but Canon Law explicitly allows any adult Catholic to baptise a person in extremis. In fact even non-Catholics are allowed...
Canon 861.2 said:
When an ordinary minister is absent or impeded, a catechist or another person designated for this function by the local ordinary, or in a case of necessity any person with the right intention, confers baptism licitly. Pastors of souls, especially the pastor of a parish, are to be concerned that the Christian faithful are taught the correct way to baptise.
Click to expand...

Part of the Rite of Baptism involves a prayer of exorcism to wit;
Almighty and ever-living God, You sent Your only Son into the world to cast out the power of Satan, spirit of evil, to rescue man from the kingdom of darkness, and bring him into the splendor of your kingdom of light. We pray for this child: set him (her) free from original sin, make him (her) a temple of your glory, and send Your Holy Spirit to dwell with him (her). We ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen.
Click to expand...
Which, as you point out, is a 'minor' exorcism.

I'm not going to cover the no-longer extant minor order of 'exorcist' given that, since the Pauline revisions of 1972, that role, along with 'porter', is no longer part of a seminarian's path, though 'lector' and 'acolyte' still exist.

Hope this helps.
 
Thor 2 said:
As I have mentioned on other threads, I have a a relatively fundie nephew, who drives out demons as part of his "ministry".

He vividly describes demons as real entities, who talk in a different voice to the afflicted one, as they are prised out of the body.
Click to expand...
I suggest you keep an eye on him; he may simply be harmlessly deluded but there may be a larger problem in the offing.
 
The church was taken to when I was a kid just didn't talk about demons much. Their existence was accepted in the background as a bunch of lesser angels who joined the Devil against the good ones, but they weren't thought to possess humans.
 
bruto said:
I can see that to some degree as excusing the afflicted, but not the exorcists themselves, who must, one presumes, truly believe in demons if they are not acting in bad faith.
Click to expand...

What I was getting at in my last sentence was not questioning the exorcist's belief, but the actions of someone e.g. with no belief in demons at all who had a friend or family member who believed and wanted an exorcism.

So long as the exorcism wasn't physically harmful (like some non-RC versions are, people have died!) it might arguably be better for the person not to discourage them and not to lecture them about atheism or skepticism or whatever unless/until they're better, assuming there is a placebo effect on their mental state in a positive way?

But that's just an idle thought based on memory of something said in a movie.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom