Let's ask again: What was the MOTIVE for WTC7?

Ah, I see you are lying again.


Excuse me? If you're going to accuse me of lying, kindly point out my alleged lie, and kindly tell me what the hell you are talking about when you say "again". I have never posted a single lie, and you seem to be suggesting that I have done so on more than one occasion. Kindly post your evidence of that, as well.


Jowenko still believes it was a controlled demolition and says he has throughly researched the topic himself. He is an expert, you are not.


Kindly also provide evidence that Jowenko has researched the topic thoroughly. None has been provided to date.

As for expertise, one of my areas of expertise is in assessing the validity of expert opinions and expert witnesses. Jowenko would be completely and utterly torn to shreds if he were to try to pass off his *cough* "expert" opinion on the demise of 7WTC in a courtroom. His *cough* "expert" opinion - due to the slipshod manner in which he arrived at it - is utterly worthless.
 
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Jowenko still believes it was a controlled demolition and says he has throughly researched the topic himself. He is an expert, you are not.

Then Jowenko can provide the audio of the CD charges going off, I mean with all of the recording equipment around at that time then someone has to have it right?
 
And he is a Demo expert so why are you so quick to disbelieve him?

That's a good question JHarrow. Especially since he ALSO believes that Towers 1 and 2 were NOT controlled demolitions. Why do you disregard his expert opinion on Towers 1 and 2?

I realize this probably comes off as a derail. But you'll find that's it isn't, because only when you answer that question will you understand our answer to your question.
 
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WTC 7 was pulled because it might collapse into the search and rescue area. There was no motive for a conspiracy or inside job.

So it wasn't brought down by a Sidewinder missile fired from one of the F-15's trying to intercept flight 175 any more, then?

Dave
 
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Jowenko still believes it was a controlled demolition and says he has throughly researched the topic himself. He is an expert, you are not.

Jowenko has made it quite clear that, in his expert opinion, the collapses of WTC1 and WTC2 could not possibly have been brought about by the use of explosives. He has explained his reasons for this opinion perfectly clearly; since the collapses initiated in the regions struck by airliners and engulfed in fires, the fires would have set off the demolition charges uncontrollably, and much sooner than the actual collapse initiation times.

So let's look at the possibilities here.

(a) Jowenko's opinion is sufficiently informed that we can assume that everything he says is correct. If this is the case, then WTC1 and WTC2 cannot possibly have been expected to collapse, therefore the debris damage and the fire in WTC7 cannot possibly have been expected to be available to cover the demolition of WTC7. The only possible explanation for a hypothetical demolition of WTC7 is therefore that it was entirely planned and executed between 10am and 5pm on 9-11. This rules out any possibility that the demolition of WTC7 was a part of any premeditated inside job.

(b) Jowenko's opinion, while that of a well-informed expert, is not infallible. Therefore, either he is (1) wrong about WTC1 and WTC2 but right about WTC7, (2) right about WTC1 and WTC2 but wrong about WTC7, or (3) wrong about all three buildings. Possibility (1) is the only one of these that supports an inside job theory based on Jowenko's testimony, because (2) is entirely compatible with the conventional understanding of 9-11 and (3) requires that Jowenko's testimony be discarded altogether.

Your contention that Jowenko's testimony supports an inside job requires, therefore, that Jowenko be wrong more often than he is right (wrong about WTC1 and WTC2 but right about WTC7), yet that on the minority of occasions when he is right his testimony cannot be disputed.

Do you understand how unreliable you need your star witness to be?

Dave
 
Nice summary, Dave. I posted it at LCF.
 
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Jowenko has made it quite clear that, in his expert opinion, the collapses of WTC1 and WTC2 could not possibly have been brought about by the use of explosives. He has explained his reasons for this opinion perfectly clearly; since the collapses initiated in the regions struck by airliners and engulfed in fires, the fires would have set off the demolition charges uncontrollably, and much sooner than the actual collapse initiation times.

So let's look at the possibilities here.

(a) Jowenko's opinion is sufficiently informed that we can assume that everything he says is correct. If this is the case, then WTC1 and WTC2 cannot possibly have been expected to collapse, therefore the debris damage and the fire in WTC7 cannot possibly have been expected to be available to cover the demolition of WTC7. The only possible explanation for a hypothetical demolition of WTC7 is therefore that it was entirely planned and executed between 10am and 5pm on 9-11. This rules out any possibility that the demolition of WTC7 was a part of any premeditated inside job.

(b) Jowenko's opinion, while that of a well-informed expert, is not infallible. Therefore, either he is (1) wrong about WTC1 and WTC2 but right about WTC7, (2) right about WTC1 and WTC2 but wrong about WTC7, or (3) wrong about all three buildings. Possibility (1) is the only one of these that supports an inside job theory based on Jowenko's testimony, because (2) is entirely compatible with the conventional understanding of 9-11 and (3) requires that Jowenko's testimony be discarded altogether.

Your contention that Jowenko's testimony supports an inside job requires, therefore, that Jowenko be wrong more often than he is right (wrong about WTC1 and WTC2 but right about WTC7), yet that on the minority of occasions when he is right his testimony cannot be disputed.

Do you understand how unreliable you need your star witness to be?

Dave

Phhh. You call that "hyperbole" and "rhetoric?" Sounds a lot more like "logic" to me.
 
Industrial paper shredder: $500

Industrial hard-disk degausser: $700

Sledgehammer: $19.95

WTC7: $700 million replacement cost

Yep, sounds like a government operation to me.


There you have it proof! the US gubernment will never do for a few thousand what it could spend millions on.

Liverleaf
What sensitive documents were destroyed in WTC 7? I don't recall 9/11 impacting any important court cases.
Well obvoiusly since the papers were shredded we don't know about it.
Of course in the real non Scooby Doo world you are correct.

RedIbis
I'm curious about this particularly persistent canard. Do you honestly think that even a majority of the sensitive information stored in the WTC 7 was in paper form?

Do you believe the majority of non paper documentation was only stored in WTC 7?
 
Motive is one of those things that I feel is rather pointless to really argue about. One could write ten Tom Clancy novels full of motive and still have more fiction to go, and it still wouldn't really mean anything.

The truth movement have walked into a room, seen a man dead from multiple gunshot wounds, and have started discussing how he was obviously drowned. As wonderful as this fiction is, it isn't really worth much time.
 
Are you trying to get me pre-emptively banned?

Dave

Nah,

I have survived for over a week at their Sceptics -section. I guess they are more tolerant nowadays. Which is also a bad thing, since Killtown and CIT have also returned.
 
JHarrow I hope you agree with Jowenko that the WTC1 and 2 were NOT CD if you are going to use him as evidence WTC7 was.
 
Dave,

Where can I find this?

Dave said:
He has explained his reasons for this opinion perfectly clearly; since the collapses initiated in the regions struck by airliners and engulfed in fires, the fires would have set off the demolition charges uncontrollably, and much sooner than the actual collapse initiation times.
 
Hey Jharrow, since this is a thread just for your kind, would you kindly mind telling us what YOU think the motive was for the supposed demolition? Thanks. Oh and also as Dave has said, Jowenko made it very clear that he does not think the towers were brought down by explosives. Do you discount his opinion on that matter and believe his opinion on another? What is your logic behind this?
 
You are suggesting that Jowenko has to blow up a 47 storey building for his opinion to carry any weight?

Well in that case, should Brent Blanchard, who is often quoted here, make a twin tower collapse by fire before his opinion is accepted?

Of course not. I expect him to be able to send men into a building, be able to tear off walls to get to supports, and get out in a short time without anyone else noticing it.


Isn't this offtopic in the first place? Where is the motive here?
 
Isn't this offtopic in the first place? Where is the motive here?

Thank you - thats exactly what I was about to point out. I am sure that JHarrow will either demonstrate how this identifies a motive, or will leave the discussion to any of the other threads that discuss Jowenko's opinion.
 
And he is a Demo expert so why are you so quick to disbelieve him?

Excuse me? Do you agree with him about the Towers?

Everybody disallows something that Jowenko says. The question is WHY. I disallow what Jowenko says about 7 because A) He got a lot of slanted buildup to his watching the video. B) His scenario is something he is making up on the spot. C) The building was on fire and dangerously unstable - no one was being let around the building, much less inside (see Nigro's statements). D) On topic and as another has pointed out, there is no reason for people to deny CD of WTC 7 if they did it on the day of 9/11 to let people keep searching for victims in safety. The most sensible-sounding motive given still makes no sense.
 
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Dave,

Where can I find this?

Sorry to say this, but I don't know. I'm sure it's been posted on the forum, but I can't say when, and I don't seem to be having a lot of luck with the search facility because there are so many posts discussing Jowenko. I know Einsteen did a translation, but for some reason all I can find from him relates to the WTC7 part. If anyone else can find a transcript it would be useful to have a link.

Dave
 

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