Moderated Legitimate 9/11 Questions

RedIbis said:
Al, you seem to spam the thread with that long list every time I ask a question that frustrates you.
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What is your point about testing the soil? In the context of all the evidence we have for Flight 93, no matter what the answer is, it doesn't change the conclusion.

The evidence we have makes for a very long list.
 
BigAl said:
What is your point about testing the soil? In the context of all the evidence we have for Flight 93, no matter what the answer is, it doesn't change the conclusion.

The evidence we have makes for a very long list.
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I explained at least two reasons for testing the soil. After the long discussion about fuel contamination, I'm interested in what the condition of the soil was because I've seen it argued here that the soil was either very soft or very hard.

Which do you think it was and why?
 
RedIbis said:
I explained at least two reasons for testing the soil. After the long discussion about fuel contamination, I'm interested in what the condition of the soil was because I've seen it argued here that the soil was either very soft or very hard.

Which do you think it was and why?
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Why should I care?

I know that Flight 93 crashed there.
 
KreeL said:
Gumboot obviously hasn't watched Naudets' 911.
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I have. The camera tilts off the towers immediately before the impact of UA175 and tilts back on after the fireball is already well established. He misses it.
 
I think I can provide an answer to the questions about contaminated soil. As per usual with Conspiracy Theorists, it's all about bending the facts.

After the crash, investigators moved about 5,000 cubic meters of soil out of the impact area to sift through for human remains and other evidence. According to reports, during the excavation "hot spots" would be dug up and fires would often start, indicating the presence of fuel in the soil.

About a week after 9/11 the EPA began testing samples of the soil that had been excavated, and also sunk three wells to test the ground water. This tests showed up negative for soil contamination.

What isn't true is the following:

1) That the EPA tested all 5,000 cubic meters of soil removed from the crash site
2) That lack of contamination in the soil and water table is in anyway suspicious.

Bear in mind that the soil that was tested for contamination had first been dug up, sifted, and been left sitting around for a week. I would frankly be surprised if the EPA found it was contaminated.

In addition, contamination refers to a certain specific level of contaminant. When the EPA say the soil isn't contaminated, that doesn't mean there's absolutely no trace of jet fuel in the soil whatsoever. It simply means any trace of jet fuel that remains is not an issue.

The EPA believe that most of the jet fuel either burned off in the explosion, in fires, or evaporated during the excavation and sifting.
 
What documents did whats his name from the clinton admin steal from the national archives and what did they say?
This has never been questioned.
 
gumboot said:
I think I can provide an answer to the questions about contaminated soil. As per usual with Conspiracy Theorists, it's all about bending the facts.

After the crash, investigators moved about 5,000 cubic meters of soil out of the impact area to sift through for human remains and other evidence. According to reports, during the excavation "hot spots" would be dug up and fires would often start, indicating the presence of fuel in the soil.

About a week after 9/11 the EPA began testing samples of the soil that had been excavated, and also sunk three wells to test the ground water. This tests showed up negative for soil contamination.

What isn't true is the following:

1) That the EPA tested all 5,000 cubic meters of soil removed from the crash site
2) That lack of contamination in the soil and water table is in anyway suspicious.

Bear in mind that the soil that was tested for contamination had first been dug up, sifted, and been left sitting around for a week. I would frankly be surprised if the EPA found it was contaminated.

In addition, contamination refers to a certain specific level of contaminant. When the EPA say the soil isn't contaminated, that doesn't mean there's absolutely no trace of jet fuel in the soil whatsoever. It simply means any trace of jet fuel that remains is not an issue.

The EPA believe that most of the jet fuel either burned off in the explosion, in fires, or evaporated during the excavation and sifting.
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If they didn't get started on the excavation until after April 14th - I don't recall, I'd have to reconstruct the timeline of what the cleanup teams did to know that - then it's also possible that contamination was diluted by rainfall. Which would also help explain their water table concerns. Again, there were some light rains on the 14th. Whether it was sufficient enough or not to really do away with a contamination, whether the soil was excavated before that point or not, I admit, I don't know for certain. The possibility of rain having an effect on this is conjecture on my part. But, my point is that there are a plethora of explanations for any possible negative test results; the charge that the fuel was never to begin with can be eliminated as impossible, given the presence of the jet itself.

If Red is concerned about pollution, and not the existence of FL93, then he does indeed have a legitimate question. However, the OP was about issues relative to the truth of the narrative about 9/11. And as I said before, the presence or absence of pollution does not change that narrative at all. FL93's presence is not in doubt; you of course know this, I know this, readers who understand what the weight of the evidence knows this. It's the conspiracy peddlers who may not understand this, and that's why they're perpetually wrong about the 9/11 narrative.
 
RedIbis said:
Granted, you'll disagree, but I've done that several times in this thread now.
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You've said that if there is no soil contamination, then there was no jet fuel.

Okay. Tell us why THAT is important. Please, just cut to the chase. Don't give us a whole string of tantalizing clues that are supposed to lead us to the truth. Tell us what YOU think the truth is.

It's not difficult, really! You're just telling us what YOU YOURSELF BELIEVE. Is that so hard?
 
gumboot said:
I think I can provide an answer to the questions about contaminated soil. As per usual with Conspiracy Theorists, it's all about bending the facts.

After the crash, investigators moved about 5,000 cubic meters of soil out of the impact area to sift through for human remains and other evidence. According to reports, during the excavation "hot spots" would be dug up and fires would often start, indicating the presence of fuel in the soil.

About a week after 9/11 the EPA began testing samples of the soil that had been excavated, and also sunk three wells to test the ground water. This tests showed up negative for soil contamination.

What isn't true is the following:

1) That the EPA tested all 5,000 cubic meters of soil removed from the crash site
2) That lack of contamination in the soil and water table is in anyway suspicious.

Bear in mind that the soil that was tested for contamination had first been dug up, sifted, and been left sitting around for a week. I would frankly be surprised if the EPA found it was contaminated.

In addition, contamination refers to a certain specific level of contaminant. When the EPA say the soil isn't contaminated, that doesn't mean there's absolutely no trace of jet fuel in the soil whatsoever. It simply means any trace of jet fuel that remains is not an issue.

The EPA believe that most of the jet fuel either burned off in the explosion, in fires, or evaporated during the excavation and sifting.
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Argument from incredulity bolded. Please provide the link that expresses the EPA's conclusions. That information has not been posted here yet. All I've found are Mallison's statements that there is no soil contamination and that it either burned off or evaporated, but no EPA report.
 
RedIbis said:
Argument from incredulity bolded. Please provide the link that expresses the EPA's conclusions. That information has not been posted here yet. All I've found are Mallison's statements that there is no soil contamination and that it either burned off or evaporated, but no EPA report.
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What is your point? What does this have to do with the fact that Islamist hijacked Flight 93 and crashed it into a field in Shanksville?
 
BigAl said:
What is your point? What does this have to do with the fact that Islamist hijacked Flight 93 and crashed it into a field in Shanksville?
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Off topic, but why did they crash it into the field?
 
BigAl said:
What is your point? Do you contest any of the evidence we have for Flight 93 crashing in Shanksville?

Here is some of the evidence.

[1] DNA for all passangers crew found and identified
[2] The hole
[3] 95% of the airplane recovered in the hole
[4] Black boxes recovered and analyzed
[5] Video of Phanton hitting wall
[6] Lots of Flight 93 links
[7] 1960 Air-to-air collision NYC
[8] Analysis of Flt 93 Balck Boxes
[9] 1,200 investigators and first responders,.
[10] Remains of aircraft in storage.
[11] Papers & light objects found up to 8 miles from the crash
[12] Pictures
[13] Largest peice of Flt 93 was half a ton
[14] Coroner Statement
[15] Flight Data Recorder data and WTC data for Flt 93
[16] THE NORAD RESPONSE TO 9/11 COmplete timing and FAA info
[17] VIDEO: Eyewitnesses to Flt93 crash
[18] Phone calls from Flight 93
[19] Flight 93 Radar track
[20] Crash debris found 8 miles away
[21] Olsen Phone calls discussed
[1] --------------------------------------------------------------
DNA http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20011220shanksville1220p2.asp http://preview.tinyurl.com/2fhpe8 Links to forensics and hijacker identification http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/linksto911forensicsaqndvictimidentificat The hijacker's license http://bp0.blogger.com/_rLV-ZuNPwJ4/RzjIqhqANiI/AAAAAAAAAuw/8Ve-LbpabIs/s1600-h/PA00101A.jpg

[2] --------------------------------------------------------------
The Hole: The aircraft impacted at approximately 563 mph (906 km/h), at a 40 degree angle.[26] The impact left a crater about 115 feet (35 m) wide and 10 to 12 feet (about 3.5 m) deep. There were no survivors among the 44 passengers, crew and terrorists (all were killed by the impact or had been previously killed during flight). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_93 http://preview.tinyurl.com/5tvkk
[3] --------------------------------------------------------------
Here's the in the news on 9/24/2001, CNN reports 95% or the aircraft was recovered form that hole including both black boxes. http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/24/inv.pennsylvania.site.index.html CNN.com FBI finished with Pennsylvania crash site probe SHANKSVILLE, Pennsylvania (CNN) --The FBI announced Monday that its investigation of the site where a hijacked jet slammed into a field here is complete and that 95 percent of the plane was recovered. The federal investigation into the September 11 terrorist attacks continues. Evidence-gathering was halted Saturday afternoon and the pieces of United Airlines Flight 93 that had been recovered were turned over Sunday to the airline, with the exception of the flight data recorder and the voice recorder, which are being held and analyzed by the FBI, according to FBI agent Bill Crowley. Crowley said the biggest piece of the plane that was recovered was a 6-by-7-foot piece of the fuselage skin, including about four windows. The heaviest piece, Crowley said, was part of an engine fan, weighing about 1,000 pounds. Flight 93 was one of four jets hijacked Sept. 11. Authorities believe the flight, which originated in Newark, New Jersey, and had been destined for San Francisco, was headed for the nation's capital, where the hijackers may have intended to slam it into the White House or the Capitol. Attorney General John Ashcroft and FBI Director Robert Mueller have praised the passengers of that flight, saying it appears their actions in trying to regain control of the aircraft averted a greater tragedy. People who spoke by phone with passengers after the plane was hijacked say that after the passengers found out about the earlier World Trade Center attack, they decided to try to overpower the hijackers. And officials familiar with the flight's cockpit voice recorder say it shows there was a "definite struggle," which they described as desperate and wild, between hijackers and some of the passengers. All 44 people on board the flight were killed when it slammed into the ground.
[4] --------------------------------------------------------------
Black boxes recovered and analyzed http://www.ntsb.gov/info/autopilot_AA77_UA93_study.pdf Black boxes recovered and analyzed http://www.ntsb.gov/info/autopilot_AA77_UA93_study.pdf Of the airliner parts, the pieces that investigators judged most significant were the plane's cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder, both unearthed within 3 1/2 days of the crash. The voice recording that remained is being analyzed for clues to confirm the identities of the four hijackers who seized the Newark-to-San Francisco flight before it crashed. http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010925scene0925p2.asp
[5] --------------------------------------------------------------
Video of Phanton hitting wall http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--_RGM4Abv8
[6] --------------------------------------------------------------
Lots of Flight 93 links
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/flight93shanksvillesummaryofevidence,man
[7] --------------------------------------------------------------
Example Air-to-air collision
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_New_York_air_disaster
[8] --------------------------------------------------------------
Black boxes recovered and analyzed http://www.ntsb.gov/info/autopilot_AA77_UA93_study.pdf Discussed : http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102924
[9] --------------------------------------------------------------
1,200 investigators and first responders,. http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/flight93shanksvillesummaryofevidence,man
[10] --------------------------------------------------------------
Remains of aircraft in storage. Since it had no more use for it, the FBI turned the airliner debris -- but not the data and voice recorders -- over to United Airlines yesterday. Asked what United will do with the debris, airline spokeswoman Whitney Staley said, "I don't think a decision has been made ... but we're not commenting." http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010925scene0925p2.asp "With the recovery Friday night of the cockpit voice recorder from United Flight 93, workers at the crash site have shifted their focus to a long, arduous search for what remains of the jet and its victims. http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010916otherjetnat5p5.asp
[11] --------------------------------------------------------------
Debris from the crash has been found up to 8 miles from the crash site, but searchers are concentrating on the crater where most of the remains are located. Papers and other light objects were carried aloft by the explosion after impact of the plane and they were transported by a nine-knot wind. http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010916otherjetnat5p5.asp
[12] --------------------------------------------------------------
Pictures http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200061.html http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200062.html Live news coverage showing debris http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeWi0JpI__M The hijacker's license http://bp0.blogger.com/_rLV-ZuNPwJ4/RzjIqhqANiI/AAAAAAAAAuw/8Ve-LbpabIs/s1600-h/PA00101A.jpg
[13] --------------------------------------------------------------
FBI spokesman Bill Crowley said that the largest piece
of plane recovered was a shred of fuselage skin that
covered four windows -- a piece seven feet long
from a jetliner that was 155 feet long. The
heaviest piece, he said, was a half-ton section
of engine fan.

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010925scene0925p2.asp
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...node=&contentId=A56110-2002May8&notFound=true
[14] --------------------------------------------------------------
Once he was able to absorb the scene, Miller says, "I stopped being coroner after about 20 minutes, because there were no bodies there. It became like a giant funeral service." As a funeral director, Miller says, he is honored and humbled to preside over what has become essentially an immense cemetery stretching far into the scenic wooded mountain ridge. He considers it the final resting place of 40 national heroes. He saw dust, not bodies.
[15] --------------------------------------------------------------
Flight Data Recorder data and WTC data for Flt 93 http://www.ntsb.gov/info/foia_fri.htm
[16] --------------------------------------------------------------
THE NORAD RESPONSE TO 9/11 Compiled by Andrew Burfield http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2164577#post2164577
[17] --------------------------------------------------------------
VIDEO: Eyewitnesses to Flt93 crash (0:1:15) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxsmhnZeM6w
[18] --------------------------------------------------------------
Phone calls from Flight 93 9/11 Commission folder entitled "Flight 93 Calls - General". http://911myths.com/index.php/Image:Team7_Box12_93Calls_General.2.pdf
[19] --------------------------------------------------------------
Flight 93 Radar track http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/93RadarTrack.jpg
[20] --------------------------------------------------------------
Crash debris found 8 miles away
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_12967.html
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_47536.html
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_12942.html
[21] --------------------------------------------------------------
Olsen Phone calls discussed
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4687535#post4687535
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See how Red dismissed this?

Like any true denier, he lashes on the first little detail he thinks is important, like his alleged soil contamination, without really knowing why and if it is important at all, dismissing the mountain of other evidence around.

And you wonder why people despise you...

No holes no Holocaust, eh Red?
 
RedIbis said:
Off topic, but why did they crash it into the field?
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Until you acknowledge the fact that Flight 93 crashed into a field intact, discussion of tangential issues like motive and consequential issues like the EPA are pointless.
 
Ahh. Ever the malcontent, RedIbis was being facetious earlier when he said "the mystery is indeed solved". He still can't seem to wrap his head around the fact that there was an extensive cleanup prior to the testing in which the EPA blessed the site as being safe, even though he's been given sources. Red, if the issue is really that important to you, perhaps it's time to take chillzero up on her earlier advice to you. File an FOIA request.

You've been given the answers, but if it helps to hear the same exact thing from the EPA themselves. By all means.....
 
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