Moderated Legitimate 9/11 Questions

[ElMondoHummus]

The soil is being tested for jet fuel, and at least three test wells have been sunk to monitor groundwater, since three nearby homes are served by wells, Betsy Mallison, a state Department of Environmental Protection spokeswoman, said.

So far, no contamination has been discovered, she said."
http://www.postgazette.com/headlines/20011003crash1003p3.asp

thats probably where your article picks up since they didnt find any then the site is "clean".


so out of 37,500 pounds of jet fuel, none was found even in the soil right next to the crater. jet fuel ran down elevator shafts and weakened steel at the wtc but at the crater, no jet fuel was found and if there ever was some there, 37,500 pounds of it couldnt even burn dead grass a few inches away from the crater!! things that make ya go hummmmm....



[URL]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_285444a185d0401aee.jpg[/URL]

"The soil is being tested..." Note the present test i.e. that is still being conducted, therefore the results could not have been in for that yet.

"... and at least three test wells have been sunk to monitor groundwater..." Note the past tense i.e. those were done prior to the time Ms. Mallison made the statement.

"So far, no contamination has been discovered, she said."

Now, parse the sentences accurately this time. The soil test results had not been made yet, but the test wells had at that point already been monitored. Given that, when Ms. Mallison made that statement, what do you think she was referring to? The soil tests whose results had not been returned yet, or the groundwater monitors that had? Basic reading comprehension dictates that you draw a distinction between what she was referring to and what she wasn't when she said no contamination had been discovered yet. She was obviously referring to the groundwater monitoring because that had already occurred. She could not have been referring to the soil tests because, as she said, that was still being tested!

Stop conflating the water tests with the soil tests. The only time the EPA discussed the results of the soil test in public that I can find was when they noted the cleanup was done. The article we gave you that you're going out of your way to misunderstand is telling us that the soil tests were still underway but the groundwater test results were known. That is basic reading comprehension.

ETA: And no, "my" article does not pick up only a few weeks after the stories you link, it picks up nearly a year afterwards. The date on it is September 11, 2002.

 

[Senenmut]

Right, cherry-picked statements which don't make it clear that a clean up was done must mean that no clean up was done prior to the testing. Give me a break. Reread what I posted.





You are desperetely in need of a clue, so here's one which nicely illustrates what happened to the fuel.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/99024a185fcc1eab7.jpg[/qimg]


Gee that crater looks similar to the crater left from Allegheny 853:
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_99024a186259d2629.jpg[/qimg]

reread this, it might help:
and then ocit 3rd-
"By today, Environmental Resources Management Inc. of Pine, a contractor hired by United, expects to return 5,000 to 6,000 cubic yards of soil to the 50-foot hole dug around the crater left by the crash.

The soil is being tested for jet fuel, and at least three test wells have been sunk to monitor groundwater, since three nearby homes are served by wells, Betsy Mallison, a state Department of Environmental Protection spokeswoman, said.

So far, no contamination has been discovered, she said."
http://www.postgazette.com/headlines...rash1003p3.asp

thats probably where your article picks up since they didnt find any then the site is "clean".


i can see that as being part of the cleanup (the dirt dug up around the crater)....but it also showed that the dirt around the crater had no jetfuel. and that pic of the Allegheny 853 doesnt tell me awhole lot. we cant see if the grass it burnt or not from the photo. but hey, u might be on the right track with the Allegheny 853 since it hit another airplane in midair. one could think of the smaller plane that hit the Allegheny 853 as the missile some think hit flight 93 before it crashed??

heres the flameball that 175 made. think dead grass a few inches away from the crater!!

 

[Senenmut]

"The soil is being tested..." Note the present test i.e. that is still being conducted, therefore the results could not have been in for that yet.

"... and at least three test wells have been sunk to monitor groundwater..." Note the past tense i.e. those were done prior to the time Ms. Mallison made the statement.

"So far, no contamination has been discovered, she said."

Now, parse the sentences accurately this time. The soil test results had not been made yet, but the test wells had at that point already been monitored. Given that, when Ms. Mallison made that statement, what do you think she was referring to? The soil tests whose results had not been returned yet, or the groundwater monitors that had? Basic reading comprehension dictates that you draw a distinction between what she was referring to and what she wasn't when she said no contamination had been discovered yet. She was obviously referring to the groundwater monitoring because that had already occurred. She could not have been referring to the soil tests because, as she said, that was still being tested!

Stop conflating the water tests with the soil tests. The only time the EPA discussed the results of the soil test in public that I can find was when they noted the cleanup was done. The article we gave you that you're going out of your way to misunderstand is telling us that the soil tests were still underway but the groundwater test results were known. That is basic reading comprehension.

ETA: And no, "my" article does not pick up only a few weeks after the stories you link, it picks up nearly a year afterwards. The date on it is September 11, 2002.

this is pretty much a repeat:
reread this, it might help:
and then ocit 3rd-
"By today, Environmental Resources Management Inc. of Pine, a contractor hired by United, expects to return 5,000 to 6,000 cubic yards of soil to the 50-foot hole dug around the crater left by the crash.

The soil is being tested for jet fuel, and at least three test wells have been sunk to monitor groundwater, since three nearby homes are served by wells, Betsy Mallison, a state Department of Environmental Protection spokeswoman, said.

So far, no contamination has been discovered, she said."
http://www.postgazette.com/headlines...rash1003p3.asp

are u trying to say they are going to return the soil even thoough the results are not in yet?? that wouldnt be too smart would it? it sounds like "by today" the results would be done but they havent found any contamination so far anyway.

 

[RedIbis]

Redibis,
I never got an answer on where you think the plane is if not in aforementioned hole in the ground.

If Flight 93 didn't crash into that ditch, I have no freakin' clue where it is.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

are u trying to say they are going to return the soil even thoough the results are not in yet?? that wouldnt be too smart would it? it sounds like "by today" the results would be done but they havent found any contamination so far anyway.

Or it had been cleaned up. Or they were going to decontaminate it on site. Or, as you all are trying to allege, the soil really wasn't contaminated with fuel to begin with because it had burnt up in the initial fireball, or had landed elsewhere. Regardless, as I told Red and am now telling you, this is a fruitless line of inquiry. All a soil test can tell us is the state of the soil. That's it. It doesn't change a single thing about the UA93 narrative that's been established through other lines of evidence. Even if you're somehow correct about all of this, and the soil really wasn't contaminated, what's that supposed to mean? That there was no plane there? Or that something else happened to the fuel to prevent it from contaminating the ground?

You see why this line of inquiry is inane? It's a point detail, and we can set boundary conditions on what did happen to the fuel. Either it contaminated the soil elsewhere around the impact zone, was washed away by the September 14th showers in the area, or was used up in the conflageration. All the soil sample tests do is eliminate one of those possibilities. That's it. Since there are no other possibilities, we don't discover anything more than insignificant detail regarding the FL93 event.

The whole idea of this thread was to investigate legitimate questions, and judging from the example T.A.M. posted, he was not talking about iluminating minute details in an already known narrative. He was talking about illuminating major issues that can significantly impact the narrative. Even a genuine lack of soil contamination anywhere at the crash site does not do this, because all it tells us is that the fuel went elsewhere. It does not put into doubt the fact that the jet crashed there.

I don't understand why this is not sinking in for you conspiracy addicts. I swear, it feels like we have to describe the blatantly obvious to you all every time we answer one of your questions.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

If Flight 93 didn't crash into that ditch, I have no freakin' clue where it is.

Flight 93 crashed in Shanksville. The FDR, cell and airphone calls, radar data, debris, and human remains all establish this. The fact that it crashed there is not in doubt.

You should know this by now. You've been here long enough to have been exposed to all the evidence.

 

[dtugg]

I don't think your standard twoofer even tries to dispute that UA93 crashed in Shanksville anymore.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Wrong. It's not as simple as throwing some jet fuel around. It's what makes a crash scene consistent with other crash scenes, namely, the thousands of gallons of fuel that leak into the soil. Even the exploded jet fuel will leave considerable contamination at ground level.

Throwing "some jet fuel around" would allow people to smell it, but it would not contaminate the soil to the extent that occurs after a crash. See my point?

Please TELL US WHY soil contamination is so important, or admit you have nothing of substance to contribute to this thread.

This is a very simple request. Why can't you do it?

 

[aggle-rithm]

The mystery is indeed solved. They did say the clean up was complete and the area is safe.

Here's my test for separating what is real from what is imaginary:

If it's real, then the more you learn about it, the more interesting it becomes.

If it's imaginary, the opposite is true.

As is ALWAYS the case with baseless truther "theories", the mystery of the uncontaminated soil evaporated as soon as a little honest research was done.

 

[aggle-rithm]

I don't think your standard twoofer even tries to dispute that UA93 crashed in Shanksville anymore.

If some evil organization were to stage an airliner crash in the middle of a field, then any method other than actually crashing an airliner there would be idiotic.

They didn't become evil rulers of the world by being idiots.

 

[RedIbis]

Please TELL US WHY soil contamination is so important, or admit you have nothing of substance to contribute to this thread.

This is a very simple request. Why can't you do it?

Granted, you'll disagree, but I've done that several times in this thread now.

 

[FineWine]

Granted, you'll disagree, but I've done that several times in this thread now.

I've been reading all week in various old threads the non-responses you routinely provide to straightforward questions. Given that people always seem to notice your evasiveness, why not simply restate your answer or, at the very least, link us to the post where you supplied it originally?

 

[FineWine]

Granted, you'll disagree, but I've done that several times in this thread now.

When I asked you how Silverstein's agreement with the fire chief could possibly be either "nonsensical" or "dishonest" you ran away. In a different thread, I have come up with a plausible lie he may have told. It is not impossible that no one called Larry Silverstein. The tiny, insignificant role he played in the day's events may be one he assigned to himself. He may have played no role whatever. In other words, NOBODY said "pull it."

 

[BigAl]

Please TELL US WHY soil contamination is so important, or admit you have nothing of substance to contribute to this thread.

This is a very simple request. Why can't you do it?

Granted, you'll disagree, but I've done that several times in this thread now.

Given all the evidence and eyewitnesses and data that shows that Flight 93 crashed intact in Shanksville, what is your point?

I declare this insinuating, non-committal ◊◊◊◊-stirring by RI, Bill, and U1, et al to be called "Just Not Asking Questions".

 

[firecoins]

They didn't become evil rulers of the world by being idiots.

You haven't met George Bush. Have you?

 

[Mr.D]

If Flight 93 didn't crash into that ditch, I have no freakin' clue where it is.

Since you accept the so-called "official" end of Flight 93, HOW IN THE BLOODY HELL IS SOIL CONTAMINATION A LEGITIMATE 9/11 QUESTION?

Again: It would be a legitimate question for the FAA, EPA and many smaller concerns public and private, but in what way is it a question related to the events of 9/11?

 

[Corsair 115]

so out of 37,500 pounds of jet fuel, none was found even in the soil right next to the crater. jet fuel ran down elevator shafts and weakened steel at the wtc but at the crater, no jet fuel was found and if there ever was some there, 37,500 pounds of it couldnt even burn dead grass a few inches away from the crater!! things that make ya go hummmmm....

Need I even mention the obvious fact that a near-vertical crash into solid ground is an entirely different physical event from a horizontal crash into a hollow building? And to expect the two to behave identically is, well, rather silly?

 

[RedIbis]

Since you accept the so-called "official" end of Flight 93, HOW IN THE BLOODY HELL IS SOIL CONTAMINATION A LEGITIMATE 9/11 QUESTION?

Again: It would be a legitimate question for the FAA, EPA and many smaller concerns public and private, but in what way is it a question related to the events of 9/11?

Well besides the obvious fact that if there is no fuel contamination there might not have been fuel, there is another important issue to consider.

The official story suggests either that the soil was soft enough to allow the plane to enter 25 or more feet into the ground, which is why it is not detectable in photos. Or, the official story suggests that the soil was so compacted that the impact caused the plane to break up into the tiny fragments that have been photographed and loaded into 5 gallon buckets.

I've heard both argued here, so I'd be interested in finding out more about the soil so we can know why the plane behaved the way it did upon impact.

 

[BigAl]

Well besides the obvious fact that if there is no fuel contamination there might not have been fuel, there is another important issue to consider.

The official story suggests either that the soil was soft enough to allow the plane to enter 25 or more feet into the ground, which is why it is not detectable in photos. Or, the official story suggests that the soil was so compacted that the impact caused the plane to break up into the tiny fragments that have been photographed and loaded into 5 gallon buckets.

I've heard both argued here, so I'd be interested in finding out more about the soil so we can know why the plane behaved the way it did upon impact.

What is your point? Do you contest any of the evidence we have for Flight 93 crashing in Shanksville?

Here is some of the evidence.

[1] DNA for all passangers crew found and identified
[2] The hole
[3] 95% of the airplane recovered in the hole
[4] Black boxes recovered and analyzed
[5] Video of Phanton hitting wall
[6] Lots of Flight 93 links
[7] 1960 Air-to-air collision NYC
[8] Analysis of Flt 93 Balck Boxes
[9] 1,200 investigators and first responders,.
[10] Remains of aircraft in storage.
[11] Papers & light objects found up to 8 miles from the crash
[12] Pictures
[13] Largest peice of Flt 93 was half a ton
[14] Coroner Statement
[15] Flight Data Recorder data and WTC data for Flt 93
[16] THE NORAD RESPONSE TO 9/11 COmplete timing and FAA info
[17] VIDEO: Eyewitnesses to Flt93 crash
[18] Phone calls from Flight 93
[19] Flight 93 Radar track
[20] Crash debris found 8 miles away
[21] Olsen Phone calls discussed
[1] --------------------------------------------------------------
DNA http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20011220shanksville1220p2.asp http://preview.tinyurl.com/2fhpe8 Links to forensics and hijacker identification http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/linksto911forensicsaqndvictimidentificat The hijacker's license http://bp0.blogger.com/_rLV-ZuNPwJ4/RzjIqhqANiI/AAAAAAAAAuw/8Ve-LbpabIs/s1600-h/PA00101A.jpg

[2] --------------------------------------------------------------
The Hole: The aircraft impacted at approximately 563 mph (906 km/h), at a 40 degree angle.[26] The impact left a crater about 115 feet (35 m) wide and 10 to 12 feet (about 3.5 m) deep. There were no survivors among the 44 passengers, crew and terrorists (all were killed by the impact or had been previously killed during flight). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_93 http://preview.tinyurl.com/5tvkk
[3] --------------------------------------------------------------
Here's the in the news on 9/24/2001, CNN reports 95% or the aircraft was recovered form that hole including both black boxes. http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/24/inv.pennsylvania.site.index.html CNN.com FBI finished with Pennsylvania crash site probe SHANKSVILLE, Pennsylvania (CNN) --The FBI announced Monday that its investigation of the site where a hijacked jet slammed into a field here is complete and that 95 percent of the plane was recovered. The federal investigation into the September 11 terrorist attacks continues. Evidence-gathering was halted Saturday afternoon and the pieces of United Airlines Flight 93 that had been recovered were turned over Sunday to the airline, with the exception of the flight data recorder and the voice recorder, which are being held and analyzed by the FBI, according to FBI agent Bill Crowley. Crowley said the biggest piece of the plane that was recovered was a 6-by-7-foot piece of the fuselage skin, including about four windows. The heaviest piece, Crowley said, was part of an engine fan, weighing about 1,000 pounds. Flight 93 was one of four jets hijacked Sept. 11. Authorities believe the flight, which originated in Newark, New Jersey, and had been destined for San Francisco, was headed for the nation's capital, where the hijackers may have intended to slam it into the White House or the Capitol. Attorney General John Ashcroft and FBI Director Robert Mueller have praised the passengers of that flight, saying it appears their actions in trying to regain control of the aircraft averted a greater tragedy. People who spoke by phone with passengers after the plane was hijacked say that after the passengers found out about the earlier World Trade Center attack, they decided to try to overpower the hijackers. And officials familiar with the flight's cockpit voice recorder say it shows there was a "definite struggle," which they described as desperate and wild, between hijackers and some of the passengers. All 44 people on board the flight were killed when it slammed into the ground.
[4] --------------------------------------------------------------
Black boxes recovered and analyzed http://www.ntsb.gov/info/autopilot_AA77_UA93_study.pdf Black boxes recovered and analyzed http://www.ntsb.gov/info/autopilot_AA77_UA93_study.pdf Of the airliner parts, the pieces that investigators judged most significant were the plane's cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder, both unearthed within 3 1/2 days of the crash. The voice recording that remained is being analyzed for clues to confirm the identities of the four hijackers who seized the Newark-to-San Francisco flight before it crashed. http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010925scene0925p2.asp
[5] --------------------------------------------------------------
Video of Phanton hitting wall http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--_RGM4Abv8
[6] --------------------------------------------------------------
Lots of Flight 93 links
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/flight93shanksvillesummaryofevidence,man
[7] --------------------------------------------------------------
Example Air-to-air collision
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_New_York_air_disaster
[8] --------------------------------------------------------------
Black boxes recovered and analyzed http://www.ntsb.gov/info/autopilot_AA77_UA93_study.pdf Discussed : http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102924
[9] --------------------------------------------------------------
1,200 investigators and first responders,. http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/flight93shanksvillesummaryofevidence,man
[10] --------------------------------------------------------------
Remains of aircraft in storage. Since it had no more use for it, the FBI turned the airliner debris -- but not the data and voice recorders -- over to United Airlines yesterday. Asked what United will do with the debris, airline spokeswoman Whitney Staley said, "I don't think a decision has been made ... but we're not commenting." http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010925scene0925p2.asp "With the recovery Friday night of the cockpit voice recorder from United Flight 93, workers at the crash site have shifted their focus to a long, arduous search for what remains of the jet and its victims. http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010916otherjetnat5p5.asp
[11] --------------------------------------------------------------
Debris from the crash has been found up to 8 miles from the crash site, but searchers are concentrating on the crater where most of the remains are located. Papers and other light objects were carried aloft by the explosion after impact of the plane and they were transported by a nine-knot wind. http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010916otherjetnat5p5.asp
[12] --------------------------------------------------------------
Pictures http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200061.html http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200062.html Live news coverage showing debris http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeWi0JpI__M The hijacker's license http://bp0.blogger.com/_rLV-ZuNPwJ4/RzjIqhqANiI/AAAAAAAAAuw/8Ve-LbpabIs/s1600-h/PA00101A.jpg
[13] --------------------------------------------------------------
FBI spokesman Bill Crowley said that the largest piece
of plane recovered was a shred of fuselage skin that
covered four windows -- a piece seven feet long
from a jetliner that was 155 feet long. The
heaviest piece, he said, was a half-ton section
of engine fan.

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010925scene0925p2.asp
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...node=&contentId=A56110-2002May8&notFound=true
[14] --------------------------------------------------------------
Once he was able to absorb the scene, Miller says, "I stopped being coroner after about 20 minutes, because there were no bodies there. It became like a giant funeral service." As a funeral director, Miller says, he is honored and humbled to preside over what has become essentially an immense cemetery stretching far into the scenic wooded mountain ridge. He considers it the final resting place of 40 national heroes. He saw dust, not bodies.
[15] --------------------------------------------------------------
Flight Data Recorder data and WTC data for Flt 93 http://www.ntsb.gov/info/foia_fri.htm
[16] --------------------------------------------------------------
THE NORAD RESPONSE TO 9/11 Compiled by Andrew Burfield http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2164577#post2164577
[17] --------------------------------------------------------------
VIDEO: Eyewitnesses to Flt93 crash (0:1:15) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxsmhnZeM6w
[18] --------------------------------------------------------------
Phone calls from Flight 93 9/11 Commission folder entitled "Flight 93 Calls - General". http://911myths.com/index.php/Image:Team7_Box12_93Calls_General.2.pdf
[19] --------------------------------------------------------------
Flight 93 Radar track http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/93RadarTrack.jpg
[20] --------------------------------------------------------------
Crash debris found 8 miles away
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_12967.html
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_47536.html
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_12942.html
[21] --------------------------------------------------------------
Olsen Phone calls discussed
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4687535#post4687535

 

[Toke]

It looks like something you got on file for copy/paste, I wonder how many times you have shown it to red before?