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Skeptic Ginger said:
It was a fascinating account with many interviews of Native Americans' experiences with being told by the LDS church they were descended from the Lamanites. They included believers and non-believers but the main points of evidence were, there is no archeological evidence of any battles with shields and swords, the Mormon version of these peoples is closer to European than Native American peoples, again, no evidence. And all the DNA studies show Native Americans are descended from Asian peoples not from Israelites.

They also noted it was not in any indigenous people's traditions in any of the Americas to completely wipe out any tribe they went to war with so the idea they would have obliterated the Nephites was also not consistent with any evidence.

The people interviewed who were not converted to Mormonism were insulted by the claim their dark skin was from sins and they'd turn white when God forgives them or whatever the myth is. And they were perfectly happy with their own beliefs and traditions.
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None of which is surprising. But it does not in any way demonstrate that the Mormon beliefs are wrong. Not liking something does not mean it is untrue.

Christian teaching is that we are all sinners and need to believe something or other to be saved. The Mormon idea of being punished by being made black and being rewarded by whiteness when god forgives you is not very different.
They are both wrong, though.
 
kerikiwi said:
None of which is surprising. But it does not in any way demonstrate that the Mormon beliefs are wrong. Not liking something does not mean it is untrue.

Christian teaching is that we are all sinners and need to believe something or other to be saved. The Mormon idea of being punished by being made black and being rewarded by whiteness when god forgives you is not very different.
They are both wrong, though.
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I think you missed this part of the comment to which you were replying:

the main points of evidence were, there is no archeological evidence of any battles with shields and swords, the Mormon version of these peoples is closer to European than Native American peoples, again, no evidence. And all the DNA studies show Native Americans are descended from Asian peoples not from Israelites.
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The Book of Mormon's description of the settlement of the New World is complete fiction. The archeological and paleontological evidence is substantial.
 
deaman said:
It seems very obvious that what Janadele wants is NOT discussion.

It sems she wants to convert everyone so she can gain "brownie points" for her extended "Heavenly Vacation in Eternity".

I think she's hoping for a First Class cabin!

Can you tell us if this is in the ballpark, Janadele?
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Unfortunately as a women Mormonism hasn't got much to offer her, she may be in the First Class Cabin but she'll be the one doing the cleaning.
 
kerikiwi said:
None of which is surprising. But it does not in any way demonstrate that the Mormon beliefs are wrong. Not liking something does not mean it is untrue.
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It has nothing to do with "not liking" anything. I did not want to leave the Mormon Church. It was my life and community. Nearly everyone I know and love are Mormon. I lost friends and some family. I lost an extensive support group and cultural identification. It was very hard on me. I left because Mormonism is an obvious fraud. So is Christianity. Mormonism is just easier to demonstrate wrong.

Christian teaching is that we are all sinners and need to believe something or other to be saved.
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A means to manipulate followers. Why would an entity that loved humans require belief to be saved?

The Mormon idea of being punished by being made black and being rewarded by whiteness when god forgives you is not very different.
They are both wrong, though.
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FWIW: The notion that Black skin is the Mark of Cain and a punishment originated long before Joseph Smith was ever born. See Curse and Mark of Cain Racial Controversy.

I kinda like the irony of you baldly asserting that certain Mormon doctrines are wrong all the while chiding those who state that the Mormon Church is wrong. A Mormon could as easily say to you that just because you don't like those doctrines does not mean that they are untrue.
 
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Let's look at this from Janadele's perspective.

If she were to decide she was going to seriously research the history of her church, the discrepancies in the BOM, the true contents of the Book of Abraham papyrus, etc... and allow the research to bring her to whatever the truth was/is, she would have to come to the conclusion that she was duped (and by not even a very good dupe). Which makes her appear very, very gullible.

It means she has donated her finances to unreal (equally duped) prophets and leaders, perpetrated lies, had to live her life a certain way that maybe her own conscience wouldn't agree with (Racism).

She gets no big reward, she doesn't get to say, "HA! I was right and you were WRONG, burn in hell y'all!

Her series of magic words and magic actions were all nothing, meant nothing, do nothing, etc..

I mean it's sad and pathetic. I can see how it would be hard for anyone to have to face the truth that you're not "that special", and you've been faked out totally.

Ouch!
 
deaman said:
Let's look at this from Janadele's perspective.

If she were to decide she was going to seriously research the history of her church, the discrepancies in the BOM, the true contents of the Book of Abraham papyrus, etc... and allow the research to bring her to whatever the truth was/is, she would have to come to the conclusion that she was duped (and by not even a very good dupe). Which makes her appear very, very gullible.

It means she has donated her finances to unreal (equally duped) prophets and leaders, perpetrated lies, had to live her life a certain way that maybe her own conscience wouldn't agree with (Racism).

She gets no big reward, she doesn't get to say, "HA! I was right and you were WRONG, burn in hell y'all!

Her series of magic words and magic actions were all nothing, meant nothing, do nothing, etc..

I mean it's sad and pathetic. I can see how it would be hard for anyone to have to face the truth that you're not "that special", and you've been faked out totally.

Ouch!
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"Sunk Cost" thinking is a powerful motivation, especially since she's indoctrinated her own children into the cult. She'd not only have to admit she was fooled by a shoddy con, but then admit she went on to con her own children.
 
deaman said:
Let's look at this from Janadele's perspective.

If she were to decide she was going to seriously research the history of her church, the discrepancies in the BOM, the true contents of the Book of Abraham papyrus, etc... and allow the research to bring her to whatever the truth was/is, she would have to come to the conclusion that she was duped (and by not even a very good dupe). Which makes her appear very, very gullible.

It means she has donated her finances to unreal (equally duped) prophets and leaders, perpetrated lies, had to live her life a certain way that maybe her own conscience wouldn't agree with (Racism).

She gets no big reward, she doesn't get to say, "HA! I was right and you were WRONG, burn in hell y'all!

Her series of magic words and magic actions were all nothing, meant nothing, do nothing, etc..

I mean it's sad and pathetic. I can see how it would be hard for anyone to have to face the truth that you're not "that special", and you've been faked out totally.

Ouch!

halleyscomet said:
"Sunk Cost" thinking is a powerful motivation, especially since she's indoctrinated her own children into the cult. She'd not only have to admit she was fooled by a shoddy con, but then admit she went on to con her own children.
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I faced this. I cannot speak for Janendelle but I always put on a brave face but I was very scared of losing my faith (AKA "testimony"). Anti-Mormon literature often piqued my dissonance but I had very strong faith. When Missions were reduced from 2 years to 18 months and Elders went home in droves, I stayed out. Many missionaries are skeptical of Mormonism and go for tradition and to avoid shaming their parents.
 
kerikiwi said:
None of which is surprising. But it does not in any way demonstrate that the Mormon beliefs are wrong. Not liking something does not mean it is untrue.

Christian teaching is that we are all sinners and need to believe something or other to be saved. The Mormon idea of being punished by being made black and being rewarded by whiteness when god forgives you is not very different.
They are both wrong, though.
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Not liking something was a comment on the native people's reaction to being included in the Mormon origin myth.

The lack of truth in the myth is supported by the complete lack of any evidence supporting the myth (no artifacts that should be there, no oral traditions that should be there) and the fact the genetic evidence traces the pre-Columbian populations of the Americas to Asia, not to Israel or the Tigris Valley.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Not liking something was a comment on the native people's reaction to being included in the Mormon origin myth.

The lack of truth in the myth is supported by the complete lack of any evidence supporting the myth (no artifacts that should be there, no oral traditions that should be there) and the fact the genetic evidence traces the pre-Columbian populations of the Americas to Asia, not to Israel or the Tigris Valley.
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I realise that 'not liking something' was a comment on Native Americans not liking being included in the Mormon myth.
But not liking being included says nothing about the truth of the myth.
Real evidence such as you cite says something about the truth of the myth.
Some people might not like the evidence of genetics and archaeology, but their not liking it does not negate the evidence.
 
deaman said:
That was really great!
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Thanks for mentioning it.
I especially liked
the references to the BoA


RandFan said:
...FWIW: The notion that Black skin is the Mark of Cain and a punishment originated long before Joseph Smith was ever born. See Curse and Mark of Cain Racial Controversy. ...
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An odd thing about that wiki article is that it doesn't mention the origins of Apartheid at all.
When I went to the article on ApartheidWP I found there was no mention of the biblical interpretations of the Dtch settlers that were used as justifications for that policy.
History in the making?


RandFan said:
... Many missionaries are skeptical of Mormonism and go for tradition and to avoid shaming their parents.
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Yes, I'd imagine the thought of losing family and community would be a powerful reason to continue to pay lip service to the LDS long after any faith in it had gone.
 
kerikiwi said:
I realise that 'not liking something' was a comment on Native Americans not liking being included in the Mormon myth.
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It certainly highlights the ignorance and/or thoughtlessness of Smith. As, I should note, that the predominate viewpoint that Native Americans were godless savages. It was typical of the tribalism of most humans at the time to see others as culturally and/or biologically inferior. Sadly we are fighting it to this day.

Today we believe that slavery, genocide and child molestation to be among the worst of crimes. If we assume that there existed some omnipotent, omniscient deity that was compassionate and communicated with humans, why did he not tell people that slavery was wrong? Why did god make a big deal about not cutting one's hair and circumcision while remaining silent, condoning or prescribing atrocities such as slavery, genocide, killing women for failing to be chaste, killing people who worked on the Sabbath, etc. ?

If all you have is that god is mysterious and it's not a sin for god to cause suffering then I have little respect for moral systems based on Abrahamic religions. If our righteousness is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6) for any infraction as small as telling a lie then god, if he did exist, would be the filthiest of all and theistic morality would have no real intrinsic value. It's simply the whim of a moral monster. Either drowning a helpless infant is depraved or it is not.

The parsimonious explanation is of course that our sentiments about right and wrong have changed. If the Bible were written today it would be very, very different. We would not refer to god as "lord" and we sure as hell would not condone slavery nor would we prescribe capital punishment for all kinds of trivial nonsense. We would not create a list of what one must not do that did not include causing harm to children and prohibitions against slavery. And our omnipotent being, if we had one at all, wouldn't be so upset that people didn't treat him with respect.
 
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Myriad said:
1 Verily verily I say to you: if the lights at a railway crossing doth flasheth without surcease . . . .
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Nominated.

Edit: By me and about fifty other people. I guess I haven't been here in a while.
 
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I just saw about 20 people kneeling in front of a railroad crossing gate that was stuck this morning. It must be a spinoff religion.
 
Olowkow said:
I just saw about 20 people kneeling in front of a railroad crossing gate that was stuck this morning. It must be a spinoff religion.
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Paul Simon predicted this.

"...the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls..."
 
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