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halleyscomet said:
I find it fascinating that the "witnesses" claiming there were Hebrew characters on the Papyri are not dismissed as unreliable given the lack of Hebrew characters on the surviving Papyri.
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AIU, there have been dozens of these funerary texts. Not one of them have any Hebrew or tales of Joseph and Abraham.
 
RandFan, I curious about the training leading up to your actual missionary work. Once you decided (or did you?) to be a missionary, who did you tell? What happened then? How long and how formal was the training? Did you "graduate" and did anyone ever fail or drop out? After training, did you go immediately into the field? Did you initially work with an old hand or were you thrown into the deep end of the pool?

And so forth .....

ETA: And, of course, others beside RandFan with experience or insight are welcome to pitch in.
 
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I have no idea why they keep saying that Joseph Smith translated anything, given we have concrete proof that he lied about being able to read heiroglyphs, thanks to the Rosetta Stone.
 
SezMe said:
RandFan, I curious about the training leading up to your actual missionary work. Once you decided (or did you?) to be a missionary, who did you tell? What happened then? How long and how formal was the training? Did you "graduate" and did anyone ever fail or drop out? After training, did you go immediately into the field? Did you initially work with an old hand or were you thrown into the deep end of the pool?

And so forth .....
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Great questions. Well, first I graduated seminary. In Mormonism that's a high school course. I then attended local missionary prep class. We met once a week and we talked about what to expect when we got to the field, what to purchase, etc. That was about 6 months. When you decide to go on a mission you must submit paperwork and have two interviews. You then receive a calling. Mine was to Orange County California, we affectionately called it the Mickey Mouse Mission. :)

Before you can go into the field you receive additional training at the Mission Training Center at BYU. The MTC has separate dorms and separate classes. There you attend classes most of the day. This lasts a couple of weeks to a month depending on whether you need to learn a foreign language.

When you leave the MTC (I left the day Reagan took office and the hostages were released) you go to the field and are given a senior companion. You also meet with your mission president and all of your leaders, district, zone, and assistants to the president. At the beginning you are a junior partner and demonstrate that you have memorized all of your discussions.

That was 30 years ago and I understand a lot has changed.

That said, let me give you an anecdote that is quite telling. While I was out in the field I had an opportunity to "teach" a professor who held a PHd in the field of theology (turns out he was also an atheist). He was a kind man who listened patiently and would correct us on our theology. He taught me about the apocrypha, Old and New Testemant. He taught me what the Immaculate conception was (as opposed to the virgin birth). Most importantly he taught me some philosophy. Mostly epistemology and the limits of our cognitive faculties and the ability to "know" the truth. Mormons have a common refrain, it is their testimony, they will say "I know the truth is true".

My partner and I met with him 3 times and he had a profound impact on me. I had been issued a ministerial certificate when I graduated the MTC. After meeting with this gentleman I thought the certificate worthless. I suddenly felt that the church had ill prepared me. They taught me a little about the reformation and and history that was specific to the LDS story but beyond that I was a naive amateur. I had been effectively given a short course in marketing. The lessons I was taught were a sales spiel. Not much different than a course with Cutco knives. Which I attended after my mission.

Hope that wasn't too rambling.
 
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SezMe said:
RandFan, I curious about the training leading up to your actual missionary work. Once you decided (or did you?) to be a missionary, who did you tell? What happened then? How long and how formal was the training? Did you "graduate" and did anyone ever fail or drop out? After training, did you go immediately into the field? Did you initially work with an old hand or were you thrown into the deep end of the pool?

And so forth .....

ETA: And, of course, others beside RandFan with experience or insight are welcome to pitch in.
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RandFan wrote an excellent and moving post about his decision to go on a mission when he wasn't sure of his testimony. I'll have to go back and see if I can find it.

All young men are pretty much expected to go on a mission which they and their families finance. Young women may go if they choose, although they go at 21 while men go at 18. (That was the way it was when I was a kid, anyway. Women were expected to look towards marriage and children, so a mission isn't required for them.)

They are sent to the Missionary Training Center in Provo, Ut for a few months where they learn everything they need, including being taught a new language if they're going on a foreign-language speaking mission. They go immediately into the field.

The missions themselves last 18 months or 2 years, and their interaction with their home and families are strictly curtailed (and really anything outside of their mission, and the church). It's a very difficult experience, but to my knowledge, most people consider it a genuine highlight of their lives.

ETA: Ninja'ed by RandFan who was much more eloquent and much more informative.

ETA2: RandFan's earlier excellent post
 
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Empress said:
RandFan wrote an excellent and moving post about his decision to go on a mission when he wasn't sure of his testimony. I'll have to go back and see if I can find it.

All young men are pretty much expected to go on a mission which they and their families finance. Young women may go if they choose, although they go at 21 while men go at 18. (That was the way it was when I was a kid, anyway. Women were expected to look towards marriage and children, so a mission isn't required for them.)

They are sent to the Missionary Training Center in Provo, Ut for a few months where they learn everything they need, including being taught a new language if they're going on a foreign-language speaking mission. They go immediately into the field.

The missions themselves last 18 months or 2 years, and their interaction with their home and families are strictly curtailed (and really anything outside of their mission, and the church). It's a very difficult experience, but to my knowledge, most people consider it a genuine highlight of their lives.

ETA: Ninja'ed by RandFan who was much more eloquent and much more informative.
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:) The more the better.
 
Janadele said:
Halley, My comment you refer to was a response post to insults to myself from deaman.

Jeff Lindsay has interesting observations on the Book of Abraham at the following links:

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Abraham.shtml Part 1

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Abraham2.shtml Part 2

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/boa.shtml Part 3

The FAIR Wiki:
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Evidence_for_antiquity

Kerry Shirts' Book of Abraham articles:
http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/papyri.htm

KERRY SHIRTS ON THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM VIDEO:
http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/lostbook.htm

"The Jewish Origin of the Book of Abraham" by Jonathan Moyer, a scholarly paper exploring the ancient Jewish roots of the Book of Abraham:
http://www.hains.net/articles/moyer/jewishbookofabraham.html
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From the first link:

I feel that the source of the Book of Abraham was not the tiny Book of Breathings (the Sensen scroll) which was recovered in 1966. Rather, a lengthier scroll of different physical appearance was used (in my view); that scroll is currently missing from the recovered set of papyrus fragments. Some LDS people feel otherwise, and I will try to show how different pieces of evidence are interpreted according to both of these views.


Teh dog ate my scriptures excuse.
 
halleyscomet said:
Wow.

There's a lot of denial in those links. It's very telling that the best defense that can be mustered boils down to denying the surviving fragments are the ones Smith used as the source for The Book of Abraham. Thank you. I had no idea the Mormon defense to the criticism was so shallow and childish.
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Sorry, dude. With that post you have likely added yourself to Janadele's growing ignore list along with a lot of others. That is just how she plays.
 
Forums have many threads and a number of sections for good reasons. It is dishonest and disruptive for anti-Mormon posts to encroach on this LDS thread. If such posters had even a shred of ethics, it would not be difficult to start an anti-Mormon thread and post the venom there.
 
Janadele said:
Forums have many threads and a number of sections for good reasons. It is dishonest and disruptive for anti-Mormon posts to encroach on this LDS thread. If such posters had even a shred of ethics, it would not be difficult to start an anti-Mormon thread and post the venom there.
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How can one honestly discuss the LDS without discussing the lies upon which it's based? To talk about the LDS without talking about the lies would be like discussing the making of bread without mentioning flour. Dishonesty is the flour with which the bread of the Mormon religion was made.
 
RandFan said:
...We were told to look for newlyweds, new parents, those who suffered the death of a loved one, loss of job, graduation, people who recently became good friends with a Mormon. Good and bad events can be very powerful. AIU, other cults and churches do likewise...
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Three of my sons are returned missionaries. None of them were ever given such instructions. Nor were any other returned missionaries of my acquaintance.
 
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Janadele said:
Forums have many threads and a number of sections for good reasons. It is dishonest and disruptive for anti-Mormon posts to encroach on this LDS thread. If such posters had even a shred of ethics, it would not be difficult to start an anti-Mormon thread and post the venom there.
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You're not getting it. We don't have "pro" or "anti" threads on this site. We have threads about things. In those threads, we discuss things. Anyone is welcome to cite evidence for or against any proposition relevant to what the thread is about. This thread is about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. People have been discussing (largely without venom, from what I can remember of the preceding 110+ pages) various propositions regarding that Church. If you don't like what people are saying about the Church, perhaps you should reconsider where you start threads about it.

ETA: Just because you start a thread, that doesn't mean you get to dictate how others post in that thread. (Well, maybe in the Humour or Community sections, but not in any of the General Topics.)
 
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Janadele said:
Three of my sons are returned missionaries. None of them were ever given such instructions.
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That you are aware of.

In any case, I think it's clear from the different experiences of RandFan and Empress (vicariously) that sometimes this happens and sometimes it doesn't. Your sons' experience, while no doubt interesting to them and to you, does not add to the discussion.
 
Janadele said:
Forums have many threads and a number of sections for good reasons. It is dishonest and disruptive for anti-Mormon posts to encroach on this LDS thread. If such posters had even a shred of ethics, it would not be difficult to start an anti-Mormon thread and post the venom there.
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If you really think that your religion should be exempt from criticism then you should not be posting here. It's the height of arrogance to think you can get special treatment for your delusions. Accusing others of lacking ethics while exhibiting a lack of common courtesy shows a lack of self awareness.
 
There are threads about different "religions" here in this very section. Just as atheists are a "religion" of their own so is the anti-Mormon movement, and their literature and propaganda are not appropriate to this thread in the same way as discussing Communism would not be.
 
I'm sure this has been asked, but, in lieu of digging through almost 5,000 posts, I'm hoping someone may have an answer:

When a group takes the Jewish holy book and slaps their own on it, they're a new religion called Christians. Yet when a group takes the Christian holy book and adds their own to it, they're...Christians?

As well, how do Mormons address the final words of the Bible:

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”

Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.
 
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