LDS

Status
Not open for further replies.
Janadele said:
Post 3965 Page 100.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8999603#post8999603
Click to expand...

It seems to me that you are retracting your statement that you did not call Egyptologists who can demonstrate, with concrete, specific, practical, empirical evidence, that the BoA fragment Smith claimed to have "translated" is actualy a fragment of the BoB, and, instead of being Abraham's autograph, has in reality nothing to do with Abraham; "liars", but that instead your "of course" response was a reply to the question you wish Paheka had asked.

Is it your contention, then, that anyone who identifies the actual nature of the hydrocephalus fragment as the BoB, not the BoA, is a lying anti-mormon?

...what neutral sources can you point to that support this contention?
 
tsig said:
The fact that Smith labeled the drawing and put the labels in the BoA proves that he used the papyri we have to 'translate' the BoA rather than any lost papyri.
Click to expand...

If you look back a couple of pages you can see Janadele acknowledging that piece. And here from an apologist site:

The papyrus with the illustration represented in Facsimile 1 (view) is the only recovered item that has any connection to the text of the Book of Abraham.​

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Joseph_Smith_Papyri/Facsimiles/Facsimile_1

It's enough to clearly show the fraud/fantasy.
 
Last edited:
Janadele said:
"Joseph Smith had in his possession three or four long scrolls, plus a hypocephalus (Facsimile 2). Of these original materials, only a handful of fragments were recovered at the Metropolitan Museum. The majority of the papyri remains lost, and has likely been destroyed. Critics who claim that we have all, or a majority, of the papyri possessed by Joseph Smith are simply mistaken.

The Egyptian characters on the recovered documents are a portion of the "Book of Breathings," an Egyptian religious text buried with mummies that instructed the dead on how to successfully reach the afterlife. This particular Book of Breathings was written for a deceased man named Hor, so it it usually called the Hor Book of Breathings.

Other than the vignette represented in Facsimile 1, the material on the papyri received by the Church, at least from a standard Egyptological point of view, does not include the actual text of the Book of Abraham."
New Era, January 1968.
Click to expand...

This has been answered repeatedly, Janadele.
Why ignore what Egyptologists have been saying for over 100 years?
 
Janadele said:
The Pearl of Great Price is official Scripture and therefore official Doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp?lang=eng
The Book of Abraham is a part of the Pearl of Great Price. "A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus."
(See History of the Church, 2:235–36, 348–51.)
Click to expand...

... and it's still all a lie.
 
Sideroxylon said:
If you look back a couple of pages you can see Janadele acknowledging that piece. And here from an apologist site:
The papyrus with the illustration represented in Facsimile 1 (view) is the only recovered item that has any connection to the text of the Book of Abraham.​
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Joseph_Smith_Papyri/Facsimiles/Facsimile_1

It's enough to clearly show the fraud/fantasy.
Click to expand...
What is downright bizarre about the apologetics is that they are making a claim that the facsimile in BofA can only be read by Joseph. All of the copies of the Book of Breathing have differences. That fact does not justify a claim that Joseph's version is correct and the translation of Egyptologists wrong.

It's a rank fraud. No one relies on Smiths translation to translate other Egyptian writings. Neither are there copies of the story of Abraham found even though we found many copies of the Book of Breathing.
 
RandFan said:
We know that Archeologists and experts in Egyptian language have called the Book of Abraham a fraud. We can contrast and compare what Smith wrote with the facts and it's clear that Smith was making it up.
Click to expand...


We even have Smith's notes where he cycles through hieroglyphics, defining each in turn, where the sequence matches exactly the order the hieroglyphics appear in the remnants of papyri the still exist. From this we know that (a) we do have sections Smith worked to translate, and (b) he got it completely, utterly wrong.
 
tsig said:
The fact that Smith labeled the drawing and put the labels in the BoA proves that he used the papyri we have to 'translate' the BoA rather than any lost papyri.
Click to expand...
Exactly. The apologetics is a big fail. Some explanations for some LDS controversies are interesting and some are plausible, but there is no question on this front. Nothing that Smith said about the papyri was correct. Nothing. Had he matched a character like Osiris or Horus I would have been a little bit impressed (not hugely so since the gods of Egypt were already well known).

It's a complete fail. If Mormons had an accurate translation of anything that could be demonstrated it would have been plastered all over this thread. As it is, only the detractors are posting the drawings and the translations.
 
SezMe said:
In addition to all the counter examples already cited I'd like to the cite the Sunni/Shia divide. These two sects of the same religion have killed each other for centuries. You'd think the divide must be really important, eh? Nope. It's over who was the rightful heir of Big Mo.
Click to expand...

Kinda like the the early mormon church. WWJS do if you were part of his "church", didn't like him, and he would take your wife as his own?

Oh and yeah what about that pesky newspaper the Expositor

Thats Respect!
 
pakeha said:
What kept me from cynicism was realising I valued the truth over anything I might experience or believe. All the best, Janadele!
Click to expand...
That is a good start pakeha... it is now a matter of recognising truth from error.

The Book of Abraham is not only important to the Lord, but it is imperative to ourselves as His children in our understanding of the Heavens, where we came from and to where we will progress. Or in the case of those who follow Lucifer... regress. We are living in the last days of which the Prophecies have spoken.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp?lang=eng
 
Janadele said:
That is a good start pakeha... it is now a matter of recognising truth from error.

The Book of Abraham is not only important to the Lord, but it is imperative to ourselves as His children in our understanding of the Heavens, where we came from and to where we will progress. Or in the case of those who follow Lucifer... regress. We are living in the last days of which the Prophecies have spoken.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp?lang=eng
Click to expand...

What neutral source do you offer that supports the idea that what Smith claimed was Abraham's autograph is not, as held by anyone who can actually read hieroglyphics, a copy of the Book of Breathing? Is everyone who can actually read hieroglyphics an "anti-mormon"?
 
Janadele said:
That is a good start pakeha... it is now a matter of recognising truth from error.
Click to expand...
Quite. And the hardest part of that is recognizing when what you want to be true, when what you believe, when what feels right... is in error.
 
Janadele said:
That is a good start pakeha... it is now a matter of recognising truth from error.

The Book of Abraham is not only important to the Lord, but it is imperative to ourselves as His children in our understanding of the Heavens, where we came from and to where we will progress. Or in the case of those who follow Lucifer... regress. We are living in the last days of which the Prophecies have spoken.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp?lang=eng
Click to expand...
The BofA is a demonstrable fraud. Few if any non-Mormons who saw the evidence could not conclude otherwise. There is nothing that Smith got right.
 
Janadele said:
We are living in the last days of which the Prophecies have spoken.
Click to expand...
Christians have been saying that for 2000+ years.

There is a certain prideful arrogance that comes from that view. Whether it is a desire to believe that they live in the "important" time or that they can't believe the world could go on once they die.
 
Mashuna said:
So you don't consider all Egyptologists to be anti-Mormon then? Even though they give the correct translation of the Book of Breathing?

pakeha said:
Janadele, I think this is an important point and it's one other posters and I have tried to make earlier in the thread.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
This really deserves an answer. Scientists including Archeologists have been studying Egypt for a long time. The following is a list of disciplines that are involved in understanding Egyptian history, culture, language, etc..

  • Anthropology
  • Archaeoastronomy
  • Architecture
  • Art history
  • Assyriology
  • Biblical studies
  • Chronology
  • Epigraphy
  • Ethnoarchaeology
  • Iranology
  • Language studies
  • Philology
  • Social history
Has there ever been a single discovery of extant evidence to demonstrate that Abraham was ever in Egypt? Are you saying that all of the scientists in all of these fields are anti-Mormon?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom