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Jon. said:
What makes you think that converts to other religions don't have the same experience as you did?

ETA: This is a serious question which I think deserves a response, Janadele, not just a rhetorical one. You said that the "burning within and ... flood of knowledge" was "a significant sacred event" which was somehow different from "regular occurrence" that happen with other religious groups. How was it different, and how do you know it was different? I'm really curious about this.
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Jon: I neither said nor implied "which was somehow different from "regular occurrence" that happen with other religious groups." Perhaps you were thinking of my statement: "This one time experience is different from the continuing testimony of the Holy Spirit who also assists in understanding and knowledge when one asks." which refers to the continuing assistance given to that paticular person from then onwards, provisional on continuing worthiness.

deaman said:
Janadele - Let's say on that particular day of your conversion, it had been the seventh day adventists, or the methodists, or some other christ centered religion, who came to your door with a message direct from god to you. If they had asked you to pray to god, in sincerity, in the name of jesus, would the holy spirit have manifested the truth to you? After all, he is the same god, is he not? Or, is there a different god for every religion?
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Jon and deaman: All that is good in Christian denominations comes from Christ... it is the errors of Doctrine which do not. Righteous Christians will have the Spirit of Jesus with them at times for guidance, but not the companionship of the Holy Spirit.

Speaking from my own personal experience, as stated earlier in posts 202, and 3950: "I have always been a Christian, was raised an Anglican, fellowshipped with the Salvation Army. Assisted with the Billy Graham Crusades at the young age of eleven. Married in the Anglican Church."
I was already a prayerful Bible reading committed Christian when the LDS Missionaries came to my door.
 
tsig said:
I spent three days reading the BoM from cover to cover and never felt a thing so either I was insincere or the answer was that the BoM is not true.
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Was the version you read published by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
Reading from cover to cover is not the requirement... At the time of doing so was your attitude as it is at present? or was it as required:
"And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, He will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."
 
Janadele said:
There has never been such a suggestion from me. To my knowledge I have no acquaintance with any Egyptologists.
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So you don't consider all Egyptologists to be anti-Mormon then? Even though they give the correct translation of the Book of Breathing?
 
Mashuna said:
So you don't consider all Egyptologists to be anti-Mormon then? Even though they give the correct translation of the Book of Breathing?
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Janadele, I think this is an important point and it's one other posters and I have tried to make earlier in the thread.

Janadele said:
Dismissing an answer from the Lord as merely "a burning" as if it were a regular occurance amongst many groups is making light of a significant sacred event and totally misunderstanding.

In my previous post regarding my own conversion I stated "I was asked to read the first few chapters and to pray to Jesus Christ and enquire as to whether it was true. On doing so, a burning within and a flood of knowledge overcame my being, there was no denying the truthfulness of The Book of Mormon and the message the LDS Missionaries had delivered to my door personally to me from the Lord." Not only a knowledge, but an understanding of that knowledge. It is a one time experience of a testimony direct to oneself from Jesus Christ... who has promised to all who read the Book of Mormon, and ask in prayer with a sincere heart, that the answer of the truthfullness of it will be given. This one time experience is different from the continuing testimony of the Holy Spirit who also assists in understanding and knowledge when one asks.
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"Dismissing an answer from the Lord as merely "a burning" as if it were a regular occurance amongst many groups is making light of a significant sacred event and totally misunderstanding."
I completely understand your reaction there, Janadele and I can relate well to your description of this 'one time' event.

I was also blind-sided when I understood this was not an experience unique to the teachings I was receiving.
What kept me from cynicism was realising I valued the truth over anything I might experience or believe.
All the best, Janadele!
 
Janadele said:
There has never been such a suggestion from me. To my knowledge I have no acquaintance with any Egyptologists.
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And yet, you feel free to call them "anti-mormon", and declare that they are "lying", and lump them in with the hooligans with whom you had your bad experiences, simply because they publicize the actual, correct translation of the Book of Breathing fragments claimed by Smith to be Abraham's autograph...
 
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Slowvehicle:
Totally false... as previous posts have already addressed.
 
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I can see your point of view, Janadele.
Maybe it would be a good idea to explain just what you think of Egyptologists who differ from Smith's version of those papyri?
 
Janadele said:
There has never been such a suggestion from me. To my knowledge I have no acquaintance with any Egyptologists.
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Slowvehivles point was that your diversion into stories about being bothers by Evangelicals at Mormon functions has nothing to do with what we were discussing, which is the credibility of the scientific community regarding its contradiction of Joseph Smith's claims.
 
Janadele said:
There has never been such a suggestion from me. To my knowledge I have no acquaintance with any Egyptologists.
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One might have presumed that you were at least sufficiently acquainted with them (or at least their work) to feel yourself qualified to deem them "liars".

Is this then not the case?
 
pakeha said:
I can see your point of view, Janadele.
Maybe it would be a good idea to explain just what you think of Egyptologists who differ from Smith's version of those papyri?
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Foster Zygote said:
Slowvehivles point was that your diversion into stories about being bothers by Evangelicals at Mormon functions has nothing to do with what we were discussing, which is the credibility of the scientific community regarding its contradiction of Joseph Smith's claims.
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Foster Zygote said:
Then how do you justify your insistence that the Book of Abraham is not a fraud?
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Craig4 said:
What are the errors that the Egytologists made in translating the Book of Abraham? What makes your Book of Abraham true?
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Not much point in posting my own version of this question, so I'll just do a Janadele copypasta.
 
Akhenaten said:
How many different versions are there?

If more than one, please post evidence of the differences between the versions.

You wouldn't want us reading incorrectitudes by innocent happenstance, now would you?
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No, no, no, that's not how it works.

You tell her what you think, and she tells you why you're wrong.

You refute her argument, she says you misunderstood, and asks for more questions.

and round and round we go.........

ETA: I forgot the part where she says that certain people are liars, you ask her 1) who is lying 2)what are they specifically lying about 3)why are they liars (using facts and evidence) and she says she doesn't have time to read these liars. Whom she knows are lying, though she won't read them. Oh, I'm getting a headache.
 
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Janadele said:
Slowvehicle:
Totally false... as previous posts have already addressed.
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Please adhere to the conventions.

How many previous posts?

Also, in future posts of this nature please try to include any or all of the following:


  1. page number,

  2. name of president,

  3. colour of flag,

  4. lack of paper,

  5. number of martyrs involved.
Thank you in advance for your anticipated cooperation
 
TheGoldcountry said:
No, no, no, that's not how it works.

You tell her what you think, and she tells you why you're wrong.

You refute her argument, she says you misunderstood, and asks for more questions.

and round and round we go.........

ETA: I forgot the part where she says that certain people are liars, you ask her 1) who is lying 2)what are they specifically lying about 3)why are they liars (using facts and evidence) and she says she doesn't have time to read these liars. Whom she knows are lying, though she won't read them. Oh, I'm getting a headache.
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Same rules as Atheism+ then.

What a strange and yet somehow enlightening parallel that is.

;)
 
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Pup said:
Those angry anti-Mormons who protest at temples and pageants... do you think they're mostly atheists, or mostly faith-based individuals?

The troubles in Ireland: atheists vs. Catholics? or atheists vs. Protestants?

9/11 in the U.S.: was that atheists vs. Christians? or maybe it was Muslims getting revenge for the atheists who invaded them during the crusades.
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Good questions, well asked.
 
Agatha said:
Some atheists become atheists by losing the belief they had in gods or in God. Others (like me) were atheists from birth, and the only thing that the two have in common is a lack of belief in gods or God. By no stretch of words can this lack of belief be considered a belief system.
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I can see it being a "belief system" in the sense that there's a belief that one should only make conclusions based on evidence. But that's not unique to atheists.

We've even seen it mentioned in this thread, where potential Mormons are expected to ask and receive the evidence of a burning in the bosom before believing.

The disagreement then is over what's reliable evidence, not the underlying premise that evidence itself is important.
 
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Pup said:
I can see it being a "belief system" in the sense that there's a belief that one should only make conclusions based on evidence. But that's not unique to atheists.

We've even seen it mentioned in this thread, where potential Mormons are expected to ask and receive the evidence of a burning in the bosom before believing.

The disagreement then is over what's reliable evidence, not the underlying premise that evidence itself is important.
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Since blazing bosoms are not exclusive to the LDS, this is no evidence at all.
 
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