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I split the science v. faith discussion to a separate thread here as it's off topic for this thread.
Posted By: LashL
 
asydhouse said:
Or answer my question in the post I made above? (As a mormon yourself, I'd love to hear what you make of my experience. I really hope you are not just going to ignore me!)
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Assuming your are referring to Post 932, I must candidly say I don't know why you didn't receive some sort of confirmation (and I sincerely regret that you didn't). I find some comfort, however, in the 9th Article of Faith:

We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

I regret that this is a somewhat lame response to your question, but there is much that we simply don't know.
 
Janadele said:
What evidence? There is none. Only the twisted hate and lies from the enemies of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That is not evidence.
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:mad: I find that kind of insulting, really. What in the world would make you believe that any of us here would want to tell or spread twisted hate or lies about the LDS church?

Other than RandFan and a handful of others, the LDS church has had almost zero impact on any of our lives. The only thing I even know about the place is the little bit I was exposed to in SLC, the things I've read, and threads like this one on the internet.

Like everyone else in the world -including LDS members- we have to live here on Earth, in reality (or mortality, if you like) and that means we are forced to live with the facts of life. I cannot climb out of bed in the morning with nothing more than "faith" that the floor will still be under me, and will still support me while I walk to the kitchen.

This fabric of our shared reality has given up ample evidence -IMO- that Joseph Smith was a con artist, the LDS faith is based on lies and untruths, and the church continues to perpetuate itself by obscuring the facts and/or by painting anyone who disagrees with their teachings as enemies.

Of course, I'm certainly willing to look at any evidence that might prove otherwise.
 
DragonLady said:
:mad: I find that kind of insulting, really. What in the world would make you believe that any of us here would want to tell or spread twisted hate or lies about the LDS church?
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Agreed. The LDS church has absolutely no relevance to my life. I don't know any Mormons and I'm not religious. I don't hate Mormons and I'm not interested in spreading any lies about them. If the criticisms described in this thread appeared to be lies, then frankly I wouldn't be reading it. I'm only interested in what's being said here about the origins of Mormonism because it appears to be credibly evidenced and the determination of believers to ignore it seems very curious to me.
 
Sticky Fingers said:
K. The question of the Barley has been brought up a million times.
Janadele has responded.....
Most people don't buy her response. Or consider it a non-response.

Bringing it up for the millionth and one time probably won't change that.

It does appear that the same questions keep getting asked.
And most are not satisfied with the response.
Asking them one more time is not going to change anything.

Janadele is a believer in the Mormon faith.
Most of the rest of us aren't.

Yeah, she started the thread with the OP........................

But at this point everything is running circular on all levels.
And nothing is getting solved.

Best after 23 pages to say that we will agree to disagree and not turn it into 43.
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As long as she keeps coming back with Mormonic platitudes and preaching I am happy to continue.
You are free to step off the merry-go-round at any time
 
aggle-rithm said:
Oooooookay, I'm calling shenanigans.

No way she's for real.
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Possible, but my guess is real. Sounds exactly like my mother and other Mormon family members. Nowadays we pretty much have an agreement to decline to discuss religious matters, since we have such divergent views, but nothing that Janadele has posted is any different from conversations I have had earlier in life. No matter how ridiculous the claim, if the LDS church says it, it's true.

Garden of Eden? Actual place, and the GoE was probably located somewhere in Missouri, USA.

Tower of Babel? Really happened, testified to in Genesis, and corroborated by Ether in the BoM.

American Indians descended from Middle Easterners? Correct. Testified to in the BoM.

DNA proves that American Indians did not descend form Middle Easterners? The DNA is wrong.

Any time you point out that anything in the BoM is incorrect, you have your facts wrong, and the proof that your facts are wrong is that they disagree with their book. Clearly this is not universal, as Pup's wife takes issue with many of these statements, which is a pleasure to see. But my experience is that Janadele is not unusual for a Mormon.
 
Janadele said:
What evidence? There is none. Only the twisted hate and lies from the enemies of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That is not evidence.
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Janadele said:
Those who do not want to wade in error should seek the truth from LDS official sites and Scriptures.
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I had a remote appointment, so I have been driving all morning--trying to think of a way to express what is so wrong, and so offensive, about this position.

The fact that there is no evidence of any kind at all regarding any of the anachronisms I have repeatedly asked you about is exactly the point. tBoM makes some bald assertions that are not supported in any way by historical, archaeological, or any other kind of evidence. Nowhere in the new world is found any primary evidence of domestic barley, domestic cattle, domestic horses, or steel production antecedent to the arrival of europeans; not only that, nowhere is there found any secondary evidence--no evidence of accoutrements or detritus; no evidence of any of the kind of support structure husbandry and manufacture requires. So you are right--there is no evidence--and that is the problem.

You make the claim that the only way to avoid "wading in error" is to seek the "truth" from official sites and scriptures--but those "truths", in several particulars, run contrary to observable reality. Pro-mormon propaganda is no more reliable than anti-mormon propaganda. Reality is neither pro-mormon nor anti-mormon. The fact that neither mesoamerican history, archaeology, anthropology, nor any other discipline, fails to provide the least bit of evidence to counter the observed fact that domestic barley, domestic cattle, and domestic horses did not exist in the new world until they were introduced by europeans after 1492, is neither anti-mormon nor pro-mormon, but an observable, empirical fact. Such fact could be countered, by, for instance, the discovery of an Inca steel foundry, or the discovery of physical evidence of Mayan cattle husbandry; it cannot be countered by fiat.

Do you, personally, believe that the evidence simply has not been found? Do you believe that god miraculously hid the evidence, as a test? Do you have some other explanation?
 
asydhouse said:
Janadelle, never mind all this paperwork.

Consider this: Mormon missionaries told me that if I prayed sincerely I would definitely receive an answer from God to tell me that the Mormon Church was the true church.

I was 15, my father had already decided he had received "a feeling" and he Knew this was the true church. Mum went along with him, easily happy to "know".... but I never even got a hint.

I was ready to hear from God, I've never been so sincere as I was in my prayers, performed as taught by the missionaries.

Eventually, my Dad read me some passages from a Mormon "archaeology" book, and not knowing skeptical thinking, I accepted that as a true authority, as science! So I joined with my parents (as an only child, I didn't want to deprive ,my mother of her only son).

I suffered two years of feeling awkward when people at church stood up to give their "testimony" that they knew the church was the true church... one time I was the only one out of a dozen or so (small congregation) who hadn't stood up. Everyone looked at me with simmering resentment that I was preventing a 100% testimonial meeting. But even though I continued to pray sincerely for a direct answer, as the missionaries had promised, I never did get an answer.

In the end, over another couple of years, I slowly stopped attending, and eventually extracted myself. Just to be sure, as a final gesture towards the kind and loving god that had never reached out to solve my quandary for me, I prayed and informed God that I was leaving the church... unless he would now tell me to stay. I said, if I don't hear from you, I guess I have to take that as a sign that you are not there.

I said my amen etc, as good mormon prayer form requires.... and went easily on my way, untroubled by the Lord.

I reckon I gave your god and your church a totally real and sincere chance with me... and he ignored me.

How do you explain that?
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I was never a Mormon or even close, but like you I tried pretty hard in my youth to believe religious principles I was taught. I think the utter absence of a rationally acceptable answer and also the sincerity of the attempt are things that neither the most faithful nor the most militant atheists here are happy to acknowledge. As an atheist here I've campaigned for some time against both the idea that faith is obtainable by evidence and the idea that those who wish for faith are fools. Welcome to the small space in the sandwich.
 
skyrider44 said:
Assuming your are referring to Post 932, I must candidly say I don't know why you didn't receive some sort of confirmation (and I sincerely regret that you didn't). I find some comfort, however, in the 9th Article of Faith:

We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

I regret that this is a somewhat lame response to your question, but there is much that we simply don't know.
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You are right that's lame.

From your post you are intimating that you must have received a clear message from god to say that this is the church etc., because you are saying that you don't know why I didn't.

To me, that's proof that your missionaries were not telling the truth when they promised me an answer. Now you are saying that they don't know the whole story, they are not party to the whole of god's plan, despite all of this revelation and certitude etc. So their claim to be the bearers of truth can not be taken to be true. They are making false claims.

That's what the whole thing has proved to my satisfaction. Note this means my mind is at peace, not that I was hoping for that result in my "experiment" of mormon prayer. I was absolutely, cosmically, terminally sincere, as only the young can be.

Your puzzlement as to god's lack of response to my supplications implies that you yourself have received some form of clear message, as I said above. The missionaries said it would be a personal, intimate thing, maybe a "still, small voice" even.... Please skyrider, tell me how you knew your answer? Was it a voice? Or was it a feeling which delivered actual conceptual content into your mind? Please tell me what you experienced to make you so certain that all the things your church tells you are the complete truth?

By the way, Janadele, since you are such a keen proselytiser for the LDS, I would love to hear your testimony too. Honestly, please help me understand, if you can.
 
asydhouse said:
By the way, Janadele, since you are such a keen proselytiser for the LDS, I would love to hear your testimony too. Honestly, please help me understand, if you can.
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If I recall correctly from way back in the thread, Janadele had a burning in her bosom, but since she had a tiny baby at the time, I suspect the burning had a mundane explanation
 
bruto said:
I was never a Mormon or even close, but like you I tried pretty hard in my youth to believe religious principles I was taught. I think the utter absence of a rationally acceptable answer and also the sincerity of the attempt are things that neither the most faithful nor the most militant atheists here are happy to acknowledge. As an atheist here I've campaigned for some time against both the idea that faith is obtainable by evidence and the idea that those who wish for faith are fools. Welcome to the small space in the sandwich.
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Well I'm pretty hard line atheist these days, after decades of "spiritual" scams and religious wars etc, and I do see junkies as fools, I'm afraid. Pitiable and sick, humanity denying fools. I have faith that it's possible for people to be decent and honest, and listen to corrections in faulty understanding... so anyone who rejects science is a fool... most of my friends are pretty foolish, of course, as indeed are most people in general... so I regard your lunch metaphor as more of a swiss cheese, or maybe a soufflé... there's a lot of different paths possible through the menu, but only the food on the table contributes to the real meal... now I'm rambling...see what metaphors do to a man's thought processes!?

The main thing is, you give the bread in your sandwich substance by calling attention to it... if you drift sideways you could just humbly attend to rational and critical commentary, and chill rather than fight. Helpful advice, I'd like to think. :D
 
kerikiwi said:
Not really. She has been told lots of things in this thread but has not believed one of them.
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Valid point. But she seems to automatically reject anything that goes beyonf pre-concieved beliefs. If something new were told to her that did not conflict, would she be skeptical, or would she automatically accept it?
 
kerikiwi said:
If I recall correctly from way back in the thread, Janadele had a burning in her bosom, but since she had a tiny baby at the time, I suspect the burning had a mundane explanation
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Finding a God in a let-down reflex is new to me, but few things surprise me about believers these days.
 
kerikiwi said:
If I recall correctly from way back in the thread, Janadele had a burning in her bosom, but since she had a tiny baby at the time, I suspect the burning had a mundane explanation
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Most people would take an anti-acid.
 
kerikiwi said:
If I recall correctly from way back in the thread, Janadele had a burning in her bosom, but since she had a tiny baby at the time, I suspect the burning had a mundane explanation
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For those that don't know, the burning in the bosom is a very popular Mormon meme.

Burning in the bosom - MormonWiki.org

Holy Ghost/Burning in the bosom - FAIRMormon

It's based on a a number of well understood cognitive phenomena that have been variously exploited by religous leaders, politicians, scam artists and magicians for centuries.

I could link a to a bunch of articles that explain the various cognitive techniques but instead let me give you one example demonstrated by Derren Brown (yes I'm aware that Brown has inflated his claims about psychological priming, etc. doesn't change his point here).

 
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