LDS

[abaddon]

Do you deny it?

Couldn't find an appropriate C+P more likely.

 

[deaman]

Do you even realize what this says about you?

 

[deaman]

Perhaps you missed my last post, Cat Tale......

Cat Tale -

Thank you for answering. I appreciate your candor, honesty and guts.

You are a breath of fresh air, compared to some others who claim to represent your church.

I am saddened you don't have time to discuss this stuff, as you seem to be the only LDS here who will actually "discuss" anything.

You are saying that the site is wrong about what it will adviser the investigator about, right off the bat. I understand.

You are correct, I think, as I remember the "God is a man" stuff, early on, too!

To be honest, it is the following items such as:

"Multiple Versions of the First Vision" and the dates as to when they were available to the general church, and how the "real' story" is glossed over.

The "Gold Plates and who saw them.

The "various" methods of translation.

The inconsistencies with anthropology.

The American Indian"/ Lamanite connection.

The "Adam is God" statements, as well as previous statements by general authorities which are now brushed aside.

The Book of Abraham translation which has now been amended.

The "correctness" of the books and the edits still made to this day.

Thing like these are what I really want to discuss.

Might you have time do delve into these subjects?

Once again, thanks for your time.

Peace, Love, Joy and Harmony.

 

[halleyscomet]

It's not HER church. Janadele is a Jack Mormon. So is skyrider. For real views of the Mormon church, and the majority of people who belong, look to Cat Tale.

Do you mean a lapsed Mormon, or someone who was not baptized in the LDS Church but shares their beliefs? She claims her sons were sent on missions, so it's unlikely she's just an LDS fangirl.

 

[Cat Tale]

Janadele - [snip] Is the end result that you will be a Goddess with your Husband?

To which you replied

Deaman, you ask the strangest questions
I am a widow, and my husband was a Presbyterian.

Talk about strange questions, that's a strange answer, especially for one who says

As always, my posts are perfectly clear and do not require tedious dissection or explanation. [snip]

Particularly since he's not Presbyterian anymore according to your own words, and deamon's question was regarding the afterlife, not this current one. Here's what you said near the beginning of the thread.

My late husband never joined, nor did he give his permission for me to be baptised. However he did not stop me from attending nor raising our six children LDS. One of our sons was on his mission in Colorado when his late father appeared to [my son] and his companion and asked to be baptised. There was great excitement in the mission, and my son was baptised as proxy for his father in the Denver Temple.

I mean, as you say there was great excitement in the mission, the father asked to be baptized, so I don't think there was much doubt as to whether or not he accepted it. Therefore the typical LDS response would be, "yes." The end result would be that you would be a goddess with your husband. That's not just LDS doctrine, but is in the LDS scriptures as well, well, as long as you live worthy of it anyway (there's always that little clause in there. )

Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

So your response seems rather odd, almost deceptive. Why?

 

[abaddon]

She claims her sons have been sent on missions.

She also claims the right to prodnose into everyone's bedroom and regulate activities therein by law.

 

[halleyscomet]

I mean, as you say there was great excitement in the mission, the father asked to be baptized, so I don't think there was much doubt as to whether or not he accepted it. Therefore the typical LDS response would be, "yes." The end result would be that you would be a goddess with your husband. That's not just LDS doctrine, but is in the LDS scriptures as well, well, as long as you live worthy of it anyway (there's always that little clause in there. )

So your response seems rather odd, almost deceptive. Why?

To play Devil's Advocate, is it possible her seemingly contradictory answer is the result of having learned what she knows about LDS doctrine in adulthood, as opposed to growing up in it? Could we be seeing, not evidence that "Janadele" is a troll's persona, but that Janadele is still incorporating a lot of LDS dogma?

Her heavy reliance upon copying and pasting suggests to me that, if a genuine Mormon, she's not expressing her beliefs, but looking up what she's supposed to believe. I've seen that behavior before, where people have ceded their belief structure to an authority and never incorporated it themselves. They have to look up what they believe.

 

[halleyscomet]

Any genuine enquirer should seek their information from official LDS sites, and their affiliates such as Fair.

That is a flawed research methodology. Allow me to highlight the flaws in that argument by shifting it to other topics:

Any genuine enquirer into Homeopathy should seek their information from official Homeopathy: Medicine for the 21st Century sites, and their affiliates such as Fair.

Any genuine enquirer into the Holocaust should seek their information from official white supremacist sites, and their affiliates such as Fair.

Any genuine enquirer into the Catholic pedophile scandal should seek their information from official Catholic sites, and their affiliates such as Fair.

Any genuine enquirer into gay marriage should seek their information from official International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission (IGLHRC) sites, and their affiliates such as Fair.

I hope these examples highlight where I believe your "advice" on how to learn about the LDS church goes off the rails. Your advice would not give a person an accurate view of a thing, but merely indoctrinate them into one particular point of view.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

I want to say thanks as well to Cat for providing some actual answers and contributing to a meaningful discussion.

Others should follow in your stride coughjanadelecough

 

[Cat Tale]

To be honest, it is the following items such as:

"Multiple Versions of the First Vision" and the dates as to when they were available to the general church, and how the "real' story" is glossed over.

would require far too much time to research

The "Gold Plates and who saw them.

I used to know, but it would take googling which anyone can do.

The "various" methods of translation.

That's pretty much been discussed in this thread already.

The inconsistencies with anthropology.

Definitely discussed already, and I've given my take on it.

The American Indian"/ Lamanite connection.

Pretty sure that was discussed already in the thread.

The "Adam is God" statements, as well as previous statements by general authorities which are now brushed aside.

Not gonna accomplish anything. Most LDS agree that a lot of what BY and others have said was not said as the Prophet.

The Book of Abraham translation which has now been amended.

Answered that already, somewhere, I know I did.

The "correctness" of the books and the edits still made to this day.

Joseph claimed was that the book is the most correct or perfect (don't remember which), I don't see where the quote says it was perfect. That was one of my first posts. I remember cause Skyrider was holding to the Preface being written by Joseph, which it wasn't. I wanna say many of my posts on that topic were with jsfisher.

Things like these are what I really want to discuss.

Might you have time do delve into these subjects?

Not really. I'm actually in the process of writing a biography and have a ton of papers that I need to read, the family kept all the papers that ever crossed the gentleman's desk since the late 1880s to the 1960s, (I think part of the reason I've spent as much time here as I have is avoidance of the mounds of paperwork!). I also have a lot of travel and stuff going on in my life right now. I said from the very beginning that I have limited time to be here, and I've really spent too much time already. My problem is, I don't just fire off the first thing that comes to mind, I study out the question and try to figure out what exactly is being asked, then I research the answer, then I have to write (which actually takes the most time).

I am about to hand Janadele and Skyrider back the thread and let them finish what they started. I told Janadele 9 months ago (when I first joined the forum) that this wasn't going to turn out well for the Church. She didn't heed my warning. But what I can guarantee you is that yes indeed, I warned her that things wouldn't go well. I'm not saying I won't stop back by, but I'm going to have to get busy on things I really do need to be doing. I'll peek in here from time to time, or give Pup assistance in something.

I'm curious how Janadele thinks it's going. If she thinks it's going well, what in particular? For me, it's like a train wreck about to happen...

 

[halleyscomet]

I told Janadele 9 months ago (when I first joined the forum) that this wasn't going to turn out well for the Church. She didn't heed my warning. But what I can guarantee you is that yes indeed, I warned her that things wouldn't go well.

There's a prophesy joke in there somewhere, but I can't think of a good one that shows you the respect you've earned with your replies in this thread.

 

[abaddon]

Not really. I'm actually in the process of writing a biography and have a ton of papers that I need to read, the family kept all the papers that ever crossed the gentleman's desk since the late 1880s to the 1960s, (I think part of the reason I've spent as much time here as I have is avoidance of the mounds of paperwork!). I also have a lot of travel and stuff going on in my life right now. I said from the very beginning that I have limited time to be here, and I've really spent too much time already. My problem is, I don't just fire off the first thing that comes to mind, I study out the question and try to figure out what exactly is being asked, then I research the answer, then I have to write (which actually takes the most time).

I am about to hand Janadele and Skyrider back the thread and let them finish what they started. I told Janadele 9 months ago (when I first joined the forum) that this wasn't going to turn out well for the Church. She didn't heed my warning. But what I can guarantee you is that yes indeed, I warned her that things wouldn't go well. I'm not saying I won't stop back by, but I'm going to have to get busy on things I really do need to be doing. I'll peek in here from time to time, or give Pup assistance in something.

I'm curious how Janadele thinks it's going. If she thinks it's going well, what in particular? For me, it's like a train wreck about to happen...

Sigh. OK, you have all sorts of other things going on which you must address. Such is life.

Personally, I regret you have not more time to deal with the nonsense held forth in this thread, but life is for living.

I value your contributions, and even if they must perforce be sparce, I will continue to value them.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Not really. I'm actually in the process of writing a biography and have a ton of papers that I need to read, the family kept all the papers that ever crossed the gentleman's desk since the late 1880s to the 1960s, (I think part of the reason I've spent as much time here as I have is avoidance of the mounds of paperwork!). I also have a lot of travel and stuff going on in my life right now. I said from the very beginning that I have limited time to be here, and I've really spent too much time already. My problem is, I don't just fire off the first thing that comes to mind, I study out the question and try to figure out what exactly is being asked, then I research the answer, then I have to write (which actually takes the most time).

I am about to hand Janadele and Skyrider back the thread and let them finish what they started. I told Janadele 9 months ago (when I first joined the forum) that this wasn't going to turn out well for the Church. She didn't heed my warning. But what I can guarantee you is that yes indeed, I warned her that things wouldn't go well. I'm not saying I won't stop back by, but I'm going to have to get busy on things I really do need to be doing. I'll peek in here from time to time, or give Pup assistance in something.

I'm curious how Janadele thinks it's going. If she thinks it's going well, what in particular? For me, it's like a train wreck about to happen...

Thank you for your time and your contributions, Cat Tale. It has been a pleasure reading your posts. Best of luck on the projects.

 

[Cat Tale]

To play Devil's Advocate, is it possible her seemingly contradictory answer is the result of having learned what she knows about LDS doctrine in adulthood, as opposed to growing up in it? Could we be seeing, not evidence that "Janadele" is a troll's persona, but that Janadele is still incorporating a lot of LDS dogma?

Well, I'm not about to let her off that easy halleyscomet, here's a post that she made back a ways. She's gotta be about my age to have four children grown and married, her oldest was a baby when the missionaries first came to her, three served a mission. Her sons have been Bishop and High Council, so she's not a newbie at this, if that's all true, plenty of time to absorb LDS teachings, imho.

Her heavy reliance upon copying and pasting suggests to me that, if a genuine Mormon, she's not expressing her beliefs, but looking up what she's supposed to believe. I've seen that behavior before, where people have ceded their belief structure to an authority and never incorporated it themselves. They have to look up what they believe.

Dunno, her means of answering the questions is unlike anything I've ever seen in the Church before or since.

BTW, I didn't catch this the first time through, but according to her post above they were married in the Anglican Church. I know one of my siblings had to convert to Catholicism to be married in the Catholic Church, does the same hold true for the Anglican? I'm confused. If you have to be Anglican, was her husband Anglican or Presbyterian?

I really think that Janadele should start answering questions and not recommend we go back and see what she said.

 

[desertgal]

Do you mean a lapsed Mormon, or someone who was not baptized in the LDS Church but shares their beliefs? She claims her sons were sent on missions, so it's unlikely she's just an LDS fangirl.

No, not lapsed or unbaptized.

A Jack Mormon is someone who represents and promotes the worst elements of the Mormon church, and/or is hypocritical-pays lip service to the good ideals, but doesn't practice them.

There are many good things about the church. The promotion of close knit family values, for one. There are many, many good people in the church-and I say that as someone who has experienced discrimination and prejudice from many Mormon members. Many, many practice charity, compassion, and tolerance. Same with any religion. I know, because I've met them, as have all of us.

In my opinion, Janadele and skyrider are Jack Mormons. Look at this single thread and how poor they've made their church look. Look at the way they dodge questions, mindlessly proselytize, and condescend with self righteous disdain to everyone here. Look at the equally mindless hate and bigotry they spew almost unconsciously. Look at the way they've treated Cat Tale, who epitomizes the best of her faith.

Now imagine how much worse they must be in real life. I know, I've met them, more than once. Not Mormons. Jack Mormons.

 

[RandFan]

I told Janadele 9 months ago (when I first joined the forum) that this wasn't going to turn out well for the Church. She didn't heed my warning. But what I can guarantee you is that yes indeed, I warned her that things wouldn't go well. I'm not saying I won't stop back by, but I'm going to have to get busy on things I really do need to be doing. I'll peek in here from time to time, or give Pup assistance in something.

It was a fair prediction. As my mother says to me all of the time, Mormonism is faith based. For some who venture beyond that which is necessary for salvation you put faith at risk.

Having served two missions my mother believes that the best way to do missionary work is to seek out those who are receptive and to try to be a good example to others.

My mother and I share a few favorite quotes. One is from Paul to the Philippians and forms the basis of the LDS 11th Article of Faith.

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

{randfan climbs down of his soapbox}

 

[Empress]

Just for the record, that's the 13th Article of Faith. And I asked Janadele earlier in the thread if she felt she was living up to that, and she answered: "Of course."

 

[deaman]

Janadele -

Are you saying your late, (deceased), husband showed up and requested baptism from your Son.

As in. "he was dead", but he showed up as a ghost, or something?

Can you please clarify?

Thank you.

 

[Shalamar]

BTW, I didn't catch this the first time through, but according to her post above they were married in the Anglican Church. I know one of my siblings had to convert to Catholicism to be married in the Catholic Church, does the same hold true for the Anglican? I'm confused. If you have to be Anglican, was her husband Anglican or Presbyterian?

Not necessarily. My family is pretty much Catholic. One of my cousins married someone of the Jewish faith. In order to marry in the Catholic church, they had to agree to raise children Catholic.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Janadele -

Are you saying your late, (deceased), husband showed up and requested baptism from your Son.

As in. "he was dead", but he showed up as a ghost, or something?

Can you please clarify?

Thank you.

FWIW:

In response to:

Well, it's nice of your son to want to please his mother like that, but you can't really believe that your dead husband's ghost appeared and asked for a baptism, can you?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8877050#post8877050

Janadele posted:

Yes, I can

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8877077#post8877077

...which may be all the clarification that is ever offered.