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GT/CS said:
This is from page 277 of An American Fraud: One Lawyer's Case against Mormonism.

These declarations by the Prophet are some of the best evidence of his psychopathic or meglomanic delusions of graneur. When accurate history is consulted, even when that history is limited to what is contained within the Church's own documents and written by the Church's founding leaders, it is abundantly clear that Joseph Smith was not the humble farm boy depicted over the decades by the Church.

"I have more to boast of than any man....I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go."
History of the Church Volume 6 (May 26, 1844): Pages 408-409
http://carm.org/joseph-smith-boasted

That last line is interesting and poorly phrased.
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Well, that's an interesting comment for him to make. His bank failed in, IIRC, the mid- to late-30s, so prior to his making this statement. In the wake of the scandal many of his followers did, indeed, desert him. Not surprising, since they had put most of their money in his bank and then lost it.

Sadly, as we can see on rampant on the JREF today, there are numerous people who are willing to believe all sorts of nonsense, no matter how much we try to educate them, no matter how much evidence they are required to ignore in order to maintain their belief systems, and no matter how much money they lose to con-men in the process. The same was true then, and unfortunately many of his followers flocked back when Smith regrouped after his failure.

Still, they did leave, and apparently in droves. I'm not sure his "the large majority of the whole have stood by me" is entirely accurate. Shocking, I know, that JS would lie about something, but there it is.
 
RandFan said:
I'm not familiar with the poster but that would make sense.
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I am familiar with the poster and he is not a troll. See his thread "Being Skeptical should go both ways" in Forum Community if you want to assess whether it would be worth your time to debate with him. I would say not.
 
Empress said:
Well, that's an interesting comment for him to make. His bank failed in, IIRC, the mid- to late-30s, so prior to his making this statement. In the wake of the scandal many of his followers did, indeed, desert him. Not surprising, since they had put most of their money in his bank and then lost it.

Sadly, as we can see on rampant on the JREF today, there are numerous people who are willing to believe all sorts of nonsense, no matter how much we try to educate them, no matter how much evidence they are required to ignore in order to maintain their belief systems, and no matter how much money they lose to con-men in the process. The same was true then, and unfortunately many of his followers flocked back when Smith regrouped after his failure.
i
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On a side note, my dad always used to say that the statue of Brigham Young outside the SLC temple was appropriately placed, because he has his back to the church and his hand out to the bank across the street.

No idea if that's true, but it'd be amusing if it is.
 
desertgal said:
On a side note, my dad always used to say that the statue of Brigham Young outside the SLC temple was appropriately placed, because he has his back to the church and his hand out to the bank across the street.

No idea if that's true, but it'd be amusing if it is.
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:D

Darn. My mother was trying to convince me to accompany her to SLC next month when she goes to visit my siblings, but I deferred and planned a camp trip in TN instead.

If I'd have heard this a couple months ago, I think I'd have acquiesced and gone to Utah. The belly laugh resulting from seeing a statue of BY situated that way would have been well worth the price of a plane ticket.

*off to check google maps*
 
Thanks to the Arizona "We're a theocracy now" law:

A vegetarian Mormon can now deny medical care to any meat eater.

ANY Mormon can now deny medical care or service to anyone who drinks alcohol or coffee.

But wait! It gets better!

Not only does the bill allow lawsuits for real or perceived violations of the law, but it “would allow people to sue over potential violations of religious liberty,”
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Realistically, the ability to sue religiously offensive businesses into oblivion may very well make Arizona a magnet for control hungry religions. You can stake out an area and sue anyone who offends you into financial ruin. It's insidious and astoundingly short sighted to pass such a law. It's as if the bill sponsors WANT the state to devolve into a series of religious battles and conflicts.

Assuming of course this passes the state Senate.
 
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desertgal said:
On a side note, my dad always used to say that the statue of Brigham Young outside the SLC temple was appropriately placed, because he has his back to the church and his hand out to the bank across the street.

No idea if that's true, but it'd be amusing if it is.
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SLC.jpg

Corner of West South Temple and South Main Street, Salt Lake City, Utah, USA​
 
Olowkow said:
A better picture of the statue, and the legend reads:
In memory of Brigham Young and the pioneers.

Is that an American Indian on the right at the base? Anyone know what dealings the early LSD had with the Indians?
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They were supposed to become "white and delightsome" after they converted.

ETA:

:Until 1981 2 Nephi 30:6 in the Book of Mormon taught that dark-skinned Lamanites (Indians) would eventually experience a change in the color of their skin should they embrace the Book of Mormon. This passage of Mormon scripture read:

"...their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people."

http://mormoncurtain.com/topic_whiteanddelightsome.html
 
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Olowkow said:
A better picture of the statue, and the legend reads:
In memory of Brigham Young and the pioneers.

Is that an American Indian on the right at the base? Anyone know what dealings the early LSD had with the Indians?
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To add to what tsig already wrote, the Indians weren't exactly fans of these pioneers who came along and took over the land they lived on. Mormons like to point out what an incredible thing they've done turning what they considered a wasteland into an incredible farming community. It truly did require great hardship and backbreaking work on the part of the pioneers. It also meant diverting water and causing environmental issues elsewhere. They used up some of the major resources of the area, causing starvation in the tribes already using that land before the Mormons arrived.

Ask the Ute tribes today what they think of Brigham Young. Be willing to bet they don't have the rosiest picture to paint.
 
I had never really read much about the Mormons' interactions with native Americans. I'd imagine that is an accurate portrayal of the history, much as what is found in a random google of an apparently encyclopedic nature.

In a short time, church leaders authorized attacking American Indians who refused to give up their resources without a fight. Church leaders argued that Native Americans who resisted were actually rejecting Christ's message and, by refusing, justified retribution.
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The BYU site puts quite a differen spin on the matter.

The Utes, Shoshones, and other tribal groups in the basin had little interest in being farmers or cowherders, or living in stuffy sod or log houses. They preferred their hunter-gatherer way of life under the open sky and often resisted, sometimes even scoffed at, the acculturation proffered them. Nor did they have a concept of land ownership or the accumulation of property. They shared both the land and its bounty-a phenomenon that European Americans have never fully understood. The culture gap all but precluded any significant acculturation or accommodation.
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Both quotes are of course out of context.
 
Empress said:
...Mormons like to point out what an incredible thing they've done turning what they considered a wasteland into an incredible farming community. It truly did require great hardship and backbreaking work on the part of the pioneers. It also meant diverting water and causing environmental issues elsewhere. They used up some of the major resources of the area, causing starvation in the tribes already using that land before the Mormons arrived. ...
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Ouch!
 
Empress said:
To add to what tsig already wrote, the Indians weren't exactly fans of these pioneers who came along and took over the land they lived on. Mormons like to point out what an incredible thing they've done turning what they considered a wasteland into an incredible farming community. It truly did require great hardship and backbreaking work on the part of the pioneers. It also meant diverting water and causing environmental issues elsewhere. They used up some of the major resources of the area, causing starvation in the tribes already using that land before the Mormons arrived.
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My, oh my.....how "pure" and "delightsome"!
 
deaman said:
You and I both know that those who started the mormon church, did plenty of tapping.
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Even Mormons know a lot of that history. I grew up with the following (it works better spoken).

"Bring 'em anyway you can but Brigham Young."
 
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