LDS

[godless dave]

I might not have made the argument as best as I could.

I understood what you were saying.

 

[bruto]

Why is there a desire among the LDS to label themselves as christian, specifically? Why not aim for the vastly more reasonable label of a fourth Abrahamic religion?

You've got an entire extra book of revealed truths, a new prophet in Joseph Smith, and some major changes to the mythology and structure of the supernatural aspects of the religion.

Additionally, what is the purpose of this thread? Post and watch the arguing for fun? Misguided, lazy attempt to convert the heathen masses? Seriously, why post a one line definition that is new to nobody and give no commentary nor ask any questions?

As for "why Christian," why not? The designation is free for any taker who wants it. Considering the bloody and unfortunate history of the Mormon pioneers, adding non-Christianity to their list of apostasies would be politically stupid.

As for the purpose of the thread, the LDS church loves missionaries, I gather, and since the posting is free, Janadele is in a no lose situation. Slim as the chances are for anything but argument, she has made an effort, and like a spammer, she need not sweat percentages.

 

[timhau]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also known as LDS /Mormon, is a Christian denomination, but is neither Protestant nor Catholic... it is the restored Church of Jesus Christ, with eternal doctrines and teachings dating back to the days of Adam, and to our pre mortal existence.

Is that what gives it the hallucinogenic quality?

 

[halleyscomet]

Hang on, I agree with you. If you knew god was going to punish you if you did not do as he says, is it a rational choice to not obey?

Traditionally, Jews were allowed to eat pork if it was the result of being forced or the alternative was starvation. Modern Jews, even Orthodox ones, will go to the hospital on the Sabbath if necessary to save their lives. Many Christians lied and used deception to protect people during the Holocaust. The Old Testament story of Gideon includes an incident where God himself dictated a plan wherein Gideon tricked an invading army into believing they were being attacked by a larger force, resulting in most the enemy fatalities that day being caused by the invaders trampling each other in their panic.

The Book of Mormon even has stories where the faithful used deception and even murder to further God's ends. For example, in 1 Nephi, the prophet Nephi murders the drunken Laban and disguises himself as the murdered man in order to recover the golden plates.

According to the holy books of just about any Christian variant out there, the laws are mutable, especially when life is in danger or there is a war. While individual jackasses will claim the laws are not somewhat mutable they do so in contradiction of scripture, and usually to enforce some personal goal of control over the congregation.

 

[brettDbass]

Is that what gives it the hallucinogenic quality?

It must be what did for Spok in the 70s:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgHxFNFWlZc

 

[RandFan]

Traditionally, Jews were allowed to eat pork if it was the result of being forced or the alternative was starvation. Modern Jews, even Orthodox ones, will go to the hospital on the Sabbath if necessary to save their lives. Many Christians lied and used deception to protect people during the Holocaust. The Old Testament story of Gideon includes an incident where God himself dictated a plan wherein Gideon tricked an invading army into believing they were being attacked by a larger force, resulting in most the enemy fatalities that day being caused by the invaders trampling each other in their panic.

The Book of Mormon even has stories where the faithful used deception and even murder to further God's ends. For example, in 1 Nephi, the prophet Nephi murders the drunken Laban and disguises himself as the murdered man in order to recover the golden plates.

According to the holy books of just about any Christian variant out there, the laws are mutable, especially when life is in danger or there is a war. While individual jackasses will claim the laws are not somewhat mutable they do so in contradiction of scripture, and usually to enforce some personal goal of control over the congregation.

Thanks. But I'm not sure what this has to do with my post. Could you explain?

 

[halleyscomet]

Thanks. But I'm not sure what this has to do with my post. Could you explain?

Sorry about that. I was directing my reply more to the overall thread than your explicit post, but I did not clarify that.

The core point I was trying to make is that God gives considerable latitude on what you can and cannot do under duress, meaning the range of things for which you would be punished by God is far narrower that the strict letter of the law would suggest. This means the decision of if one should obey a given law in a given circumstance is not just a question of "Will I be punished?" but one of "Is it moral to break this law at this time?"

Did the Donner party sin by eating the bodies of people who had died of starvation? No. Is it a sin to kill the enemy during a war? No.

To address your specific post:

"If you knew god was going to punish you if you did not do as he says, is it a rational choice to not obey?"

Yes, it is rational to disobey a specific law under the right circumstances.

 

[Janadele]

Jason, this thread has evolved from another thread in which off topic questions re LDS where being asked. Hence the generality of the title.

... what is the purpose of this thread?

 

[ArchieGoodwin]

(snip)

As for the purpose of the thread, the LDS church loves missionaries, I gather, and since the posting is free, Janadele is in a no lose situation. Slim as the chances are for anything but argument, she has made an effort, and like a spammer, she need not sweat percentages.

I was confused as to the OP, but I think this answers it for me. Since he/she didn't stick around for a discussion, even more so.

ETA: Janadele did respond while I was typing this, so I take back the part about not sticking around.

 

[RandFan]

Sorry about that. I was directing my reply more to the overall thread than your explicit post, but I did not clarify that.

The core point I was trying to make is that God gives considerable latitude on what you can and cannot do under duress, meaning the range of things for which you would be punished by God is far narrower that the strict letter of the law would suggest. This means the decision of if one should obey a given law in a given circumstance is not just a question of "Will I be punished?" but one of "Is it moral to break this law at this time?"

Did the Donner party sin by eating the bodies of people who had died of starvation? No. Is it a sin to kill the enemy during a war? No.

To address your specific post:

Yes, it is rational to disobey a specific law under the right circumstances.

Granting the premise that there is a god, I concede there can be exceptions but that really is beside the point. Re: Highlighted text. But that's the crux of the problem (again assuming god).

Let's back up. You've gotten way off topic.

"The Father of souls has endowed His children with the divine birthright of free agency; He does not and will not control them by arbitrary force; He impels no man toward sin; He compels none to righteousness.

According to Janadele I'm free to choose to not obey god. However, If I choose to not obey by rejecting the message then I may be punished.

 

[slyjoe]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also known as LDS /Mormon, is a Christian denomination, but is neither Protestant nor Catholic... it is the restored Church of Jesus Christ, with eternal doctrines and teachings dating back to the days of Adam, and to our pre mortal existence.

Like the Curse of Cain Doctrine? Right...

 

[halleyscomet]

Jason, this thread has evolved from another thread in which off topic questions re LDS where being asked. Hence the generality of the title.

Not really. The thread was about Mormon gender roles, and was still about Mormon gender roles, but you felt the need to split it off into another thread for some reason.

By the way, did you ever find a source on an official LDS stance on if Hermaphrodites can marry? You still haven't answered that one. I found some anecdotes suggesting the church is fine with it as long as the person "picks" a gender for marriage and church role purposes. I'd still like to know if there are any official church positions on the topic, or if it's just something where individual temples wing it.

 

[halleyscomet]

According to Janadele I'm free to choose to not obey god. However, If I choose to not obey by rejecting the message then I may be punished.

That's the conundrum of free will. If you make the wrong choice, the supernatural father figure spanks you very badly. On the bright side that spanking is relatively mild in Moron theology. They don't have Hell anymore. You aren't even REALLY cut off from the highest levels of paradise, it just gets really, really hard to progress.

 

[ArchieGoodwin]

Jason, this thread has evolved from another thread in which off topic questions re LDS where being asked. Hence the generality of the title.

Not really. The thread was about Mormon gender roles, and was still about Mormon gender roles, but you felt the need to split it off into another thread for some reason.

By the way, did you ever find a source on an official LDS stance on if Hermaphrodites can marry? You still haven't answered that one. I found some anecdotes suggesting the church is fine with it as long as the person "picks" a gender for marriage and church role purposes. I'd still like to know if there are any official church positions on the topic, or if it's just something where individual temples wing it.

So what IS this thread about?

I apologize for blundering in where I'm not wanted, but I'm confused still.

 

[RandFan]

That's the conundrum of free will. If you make the wrong choice, the supernatural father figure spanks you very badly. On the bright side that spanking is relatively mild in Moron theology. They don't have Hell anymore. You aren't even REALLY cut off from the highest levels of paradise, it just gets really, really hard to progress.

You are, to a degree, correct but it's not as clear as you might suppose.

"No progression between kingdoms. After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial, or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal! That is why we must make our decisions early in life and why it is imperative that such decisions be right."

That's just one of many quotes. Others can be found here.

 

[RandFan]

So what IS this thread about?

I apologize for blundering in where I'm not wanted, but I'm confused still.

Janadele has offered to answer question in this thread. She made it clean in another thread that she would start this one in order to keep the other from going OT. I assume you can ask her anything you like that has to do with Mormonism or you can bring up any Mormon subject you like for purposes of discussion.

 

[ArchieGoodwin]

Janadele has offered to answer question in this thread. She made it clean in another thread that she would start this one in order to keep the other from going OT. I assume you can ask her anything you like that has to do with Mormonism or you can bring up any Mormon subject you like for purposes of discussion.

Ok. I didn't see a "merged" or "split from" title so I didn't know this was a continuation of a previous discussion.

Most of my questions would be about "Under The Banner Of Heaven" and so might not fit this discussion.

 

[RandFan]

Ok. I didn't see a "merged" or "split from" title so I didn't know this was a continuation of a previous discussion.

Most of my questions would be about "Under The Banner Of Heaven" and so might not fit this discussion.

Ask a question and see. Janadele seems very reasonable and polite.

FYI: The events documented in "Under The Banner Of Heaven" are fascinating and of course sad and tragic. But bear in mind that Mormons tend to draw very distinct lines between them and FLDS. Any attempt at blurring those lines or showing the parallels are rejected utterly.

 

[ArchieGoodwin]

Ask a question and see. Janadele seems very reasonable and polite.

FYI: The events documented in "Under The Banner Of Heaven" are fascinating and of course sad and tragic. But bear in mind that Mormons tend to draw very distinct lines between them and FLDS. Any attempt at blurring those lines or showing the parallels are rejected utterly.

Well I suppose that the "distinct lines" might be part of it. Are you going to answer for her then? Should have been your thread instead of hers, maybe.

 

[RandFan]

Well I suppose that the "distinct lines" might be part of it. Are you going to answer for her then? Should have been your thread instead of hers, maybe.

Keep in mind that Janadele is a Mormon and I'm an atheist (the church counts me a Mormon as my name is still in their records).

And to be fair, though I follow blogs and news on Mormonism and though I get lots of information from friends and family, I've not been active for years. I'm sure Janadele would prefer to speak for herself. But I'm happy to offer an opinion.

ETA: I stopped attending church almost two decades ago. Wow.