LDS II: The Mormons

[turingtest]

The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has released a statement addressing the topic of same-sex marriage in the state of Utah, a portion of which is as follows:
"As we face this and other issues of our time, we encourage all to bear in mind our Heavenly Father’s purposes in creating the earth and providing for our mortal birth and experience here as His children. “God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth” (Genesis 1:27–28). “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh” (Genesis 2:24). Marriage between a man and a woman was instituted by God and is central to His plan for His children and for the well-being of society. Strong families, guided by a loving mother and father, serve as the fundamental institution for nurturing children, instilling faith, and transmitting to future generations the moral strengths and values that are important to civilization and crucial to eternal salvation.

Changes in the civil law do not, indeed cannot, change the moral law that God has established. God expects us to uphold and keep His commandments regardless of divergent opinions or trends in society. His law of chastity is clear: sexual relations are proper only between a man and a woman who are legally and lawfully wedded as husband and wife...
Just as those who promote same-sex marriage are entitled to civility, the same is true for those who oppose it. The Church insists on its leaders’ and members’ constitutionally protected right to express and advocate religious convictions on marriage, family, and morality free from retaliation or retribution. The Church is also entitled to maintain its standards of moral conduct and good standing for members. Consistent with our fundamental beliefs, Church officers will not employ their ecclesiastical authority to perform marriages between two people of the same sex, and the Church does not permit its meetinghouses or other properties to be used for ceremonies, receptions, or other activities associated with same-sex marriages." http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/artic...gn=Feed:+LDSNewsRoomTop15+(RSS:+LDS+Newsroom)

That's all well and good, Janadele; and it's absolutely correct to say that the LDS Church has a fundamental religious right to determine, from its own doctrine and for its own members who submit to their authority, who can and who cannot have their marriage blessed by that Church. They have a right to freely say what they believe about moral vs civil rights.

But, under our American Constitution that protects for them that right, that same religious freedom belongs to everyone else too. It's in the nature of religion for each one to believe that it alone has the "Truth" and "moral right" on its side; but it's in the nature (indeed, it's the purpose) of the U.S. Constitutional guarantee of religious freedom that, while each religion's right to believe and preach this is protected, none are entitled by that right to impose on others any civil law based on their claim to "Truth."

It's just that simple, Janadele- everyone else has as much right to ignore your religious strictures as you have to abide by (and preach) them. As long as you argue about the legal institution of marriage with religious arguments, you won't get anywhere because you have no place to go.

 

[Slowvehicle]

<respectful snip for space>
Changes in the civil law do not, indeed cannot, change the moral law that God has established. God expects us to uphold and keep His commandments regardless of divergent opinions or trends in society. His law of chastity is clear: sexual relations are proper only between a man and a woman who are legally and lawfully wedded as husband and wife...
Just as those who promote same-sex marriage are entitled to civility, the same is true for those who oppose it. The Church insists on its leaders’ and members’ constitutionally protected right to express and advocate religious convictions on marriage, family, and morality free from retaliation or retribution. The Church is also entitled to maintain its standards of moral conduct and good standing for members. Consistent with our fundamental beliefs, Church officers will not employ their ecclesiastical authority to perform marriages between two people of the same sex, and the Church does not permit its meetinghouses or other properties to be used for ceremonies, receptions, or other activities associated with same-sex marriages." http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/artic...gn=Feed:+LDSNewsRoomTop15+(RSS:+LDS+Newsroom)

highlight added
And you know? If you were simply "expressing" and "advocating" your "religious convictions" about the behaviours you find "disgusting and abhorrent", I, for one, would have no more problem with it than I have with creationists, flat-earthers, figBooters, or inventors of perpetual-motion machines.

If your were simply saying that I and mine are not to be permitted the benison of marriage within the fastness of your clubhouse, I would have no problem with it.

It is when, as I have pointed out repeatedly, you pretend that "expressing" your "religious convictions" gives you leave and license to deny the civil and human rights of people who are not, nor have any intention of being, subject to the rules of your sect, that you do err.

How does getting out of the way of the rights of consenting adults to marry violate your ability to "express" your "religious convictions"? What have (for instance) I, and mine, done today that has limited your own right to practice your own "religious convictions"?

As I have said before, my personal issue with those who arrogate to codify their "religious convictions" into law is not the content of those "religious convictions", but their application, to me (or to anyone else who does not choose to espouse them), as law.

Not to over-personify, but my partner and I are approaching our 9th wedding anniversary. How has any moment of that nine years affected your ability to worship your 'god' however you choose?

How would you react if bands of nooligans began "expressing their religious convictions" by enforcing Shaira Law in your neighborhood?

 

[JimOfAllTrades]

The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has released a statement addressing the topic of same-sex marriage in the state of Utah, a portion of which is as follows:
(snip)

Consistent with our fundamental beliefs, Church officers will not employ their ecclesiastical authority to perform marriages between two people of the same sex, and the Church does not permit its meetinghouses or other properties to be used for ceremonies, receptions, or other activities associated with same-sex marriages."

But as far as I can see, no one here (or pretty much anywhere) wants to force the LDS or any other church to perform or sanction same-sex or any other type of marriage that is against their belief.

We are willing to leave you alone and let you make your own decisions about this. Granted, many (myself included) think that this is a narrow-minded and bigoted attitude, but that’s our right. Nonetheless, I would actively fight for the right of any church to not be forced to perform any wedding they were against.

You, on the other hand, don’t want to leave gay people alone and let them get married or not as they wish. You want to make sure the law actively denies them that right. And you want to do it based on nothing more than your religious conviction that it is wrong.

See the difference?

 

[Janadele]

... a conservative Mormon friend of mine is writing a Bible study guide about Nephi's Bow and its meaning to assorted Mormon denominations. Could the Mormons and former Mormons in the thread please tell me how they interpret the symbolism in the story and it's relevance to the Mormon faith? ...

There are many references at lds.org on Nephi's Bow, here is one of the links:

https://www.lds.org/new-era/2013/09/nephis-bows?lang=eng

 

[Janadele]

"ABC15 will broadcast a rare in-depth look at the new Gilbert Mormon temple during a 30-minute special airing at 6:30 p.m. on Friday, Jan. 17.
The special will show viewers what goes on inside the Temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and will be broadcast the night before the church opens the doors to its new Gilbert temple, allowing hundreds of thousands of members and non-members alike a free tour of the building".

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/about_us/n...ormon-temple-abc15-gives-you-rare-look-inside

 

[Janadele]

Section of statement 10 January,2014 not yet posted: "The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles sent the following instructions and guidance to congregational leaders. Leaders were asked to share this information with their members... On December 20, 2013, a federal district judge in Salt Lake City issued an order legalizing same-sex marriage in Utah, striking down century-old state laws and a state constitutional amendment that defined marriage exclusively as between a man and a woman. The United States Supreme Court has put that ruling on hold pending consideration of the issue by an appellate court... We urge you to review and teach Church members the doctrine contained in “The Family: A Proclamation to the World.” As members of the Church, we are responsible to teach the gospel of Jesus Christ and to illuminate the great blessings that flow from heeding God’s commandments as well as the inevitable consequences of ignoring them. We invite you to pray that people everywhere will have their hearts softened to the truths of the gospel, and that wisdom will be granted to those who are called upon to decide issues critical to society’s future."

 

[halleyscomet]

There are many references at lds.org on Nephi's Bow, here is one of the links:



https://www.lds.org/new-era/2013/09/nephis-bows?lang=eng

He's already collected links like that. What he's looking for the opinions of regular Mormons. Do you have your own opinion, or are you just deferring to others on what you "should" think?

 

[bruto]

Section of statement 10 January,2014 not yet posted: "The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles sent the following instructions and guidance to congregational leaders. Leaders were asked to share this information with their members... On December 20, 2013, a federal district judge in Salt Lake City issued an order legalizing same-sex marriage in Utah, striking down century-old state laws and a state constitutional amendment that defined marriage exclusively as between a man and a woman. The United States Supreme Court has put that ruling on hold pending consideration of the issue by an appellate court... We urge you to review and teach Church members the doctrine contained in “The Family: A Proclamation to the World.” As members of the Church, we are responsible to teach the gospel of Jesus Christ and to illuminate the great blessings that flow from heeding God’s commandments as well as the inevitable consequences of ignoring them. We invite you to pray that people everywhere will have their hearts softened to the truths of the gospel, and that wisdom will be granted to those who are called upon to decide issues critical to society’s future."

Back when other Christians were condemning Mormons for their apostasy and murdering them and burning down their farms over religious doctrine, the Mormons seemed to understand pretty well the difference between the right to say what you believe and the right to impose it on others.

The current LDS Church in its statements if not always in its actions seems still to espouse that principle. Apostasy consists not only in what you believe, but in what you practice. Don't miss the bus.

 

[Janadele]

But as far as I can see, no one here (or pretty much anywhere) wants to force the LDS or any other church to perform or sanction same-sex or any other type of marriage that is against their belief.
We are willing to leave you alone and let you make your own decisions about this... Nonetheless, I would actively fight for the right of any church to not be forced to perform any wedding they were against.
You, on the other hand... want to make sure the law actively denies them that right.

You are just one of many who have been deceived as to the real agenda and reasons behind the push for legality.
LDS Leaders are not deceived, and are aware of the fight to come.
Homosexuality is the way Satan is using to frustrate the purposes of our Lord in bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind.
Anti discrimination cases already clog the courts and are but the tip of the iceberg of legal challenges designed to achieve the wicked purposes of Satan.
Amongst the destruction, misery and suffering which is coming, we will fight evil till the end of this world as we know it.

From October 2013 Conference, Apostle Dallin H. Oaks confirms: "the marriage of a man and a woman is necessary for the accomplishment of God’s plan. Only this marriage will provide the approved setting for mortal birth and to prepare family members for eternal life."

 

[Cat Tale]

I'd like to return to a question from the old LDS thread concerning the Hollow Earth as LDS doctrine. I've never heard of it, but Janadele seemed to imply that it was indeed doctrine. I don't want to misquote or get anything out of order, so I'll just link to each post and give a brief summary.

Here's the original post (5912) by GeneMachine asking if Randfan [or really anyone] could confirm or deny whether or not a Hollow Earth is LDS doctrine.

Pup said in post 5917 not much would be found cause it isn't doctrine.

In post 5923 Janadele said, "There are many appropriate Scriptural references, including the following:" she lists 5 verses from the D&C, all which include stuff like, "in the earth beneath," or "under the earth," or "in her bowels." So it looks pretty obvious that this is a response to the hollow earth question.

Then when asked by Pakeha if she's saying the hollow earth forms part of LDS doctrine post 5926, she quoted Pakeha and then said, "Pakeha, as you are aware, LDS Scriptures, which includes the Doctrine and Covenants, is LDS Doctrine." That was post 5931

That sure seems to imply that she's saying the hollow earth is a part of LDS doctrine. And when asked for further clarification like, "is that a yes or a no?" and "Do those scriptures mean to you that the Earth is hollow?" etc. She never answered the questions. I'd like to know what documentation there is that the Hollow Earth is part of LDS doctrine.

 

[Loss Leader]

You are just one of many who have been deceived as to the real agenda and reasons behind the push for legality.
LDS Leaders are not deceived, and are aware of the fight to come.
Homosexuality is the way Satan is using to frustrate the purposes of our Lord in bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind.
Anti discrimination cases already clog the courts and are but the tip of the iceberg of legal challenges designed to achieve the wicked purposes of Satan.
Amongst the destruction, misery and suffering which is coming, we will fight evil till the end of this world as we know it.

From October 2013 Conference, Apostle Dallin H. Oaks confirms: "the marriage of a man and a woman is necessary for the accomplishment of God’s plan. Only this marriage will provide the approved setting for mortal birth and to prepare family members for eternal life."

This contradicts what I was told earlier in the thread. I was informed that Mormons believe that the messiah will only come when the world is in complete turmoil and the forces of Satan are ... forcing things or whatever they do. So, which is it? Does the world have to be in chaos, or does it have to be as close to Godly as possible?

 

[Janadele]

This contradicts what I was told earlier in the thread. I was informed that Mormons believe that the messiah will only come when the world is in complete turmoil and the forces of Satan are ... forcing things or whatever they do. So, which is it? Does the world have to be in chaos, or does it have to be as close to Godly as possible?

It is not a matter of "having to be in chaos" or "as close to Godly as possible".
Only our Heavenly Father knows the time of the ushering in of the Millennium and the celestialisation of this earth. We have however been given warnings, signs and prophecies as to what to expect as Satan and his followers increase in wickedness and "fight to the death" knowing their allocated time is expiring. This is not what our Heavenly Father desires, it is the consequence of choices some of His children have made, and a continuance and conclusion of the war between good and evil which originated in our pre mortal existence.

"In the plan of God this earth was created as a home for man. It is his proving ground, the place of his mortal probation, the place where he is tried and tested to see if he “will do all things whatsoever the Lord [his] God shall command” (Abraham 3:25). The ultimate destiny of the earth, like the ultimate destiny of man, is to become celestial. Following its celestialisation, the earth will serve as the eternal home of all those who abide a celestial law (see D&C 88:22).“Therefore, it [the earth] must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory; for after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory,even with the presence of God the Father; that bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified” (D&C 88:18–20)"

https://www.lds.org/manual/old-test...ment+Section+B:+Covenants+and+Covenant+Making

 

[halleyscomet]

I'd like to return to a question from the old LDS thread concerning the Hollow Earth as LDS doctrine. I've never heard of it, but Janadele seemed to imply that it was indeed doctrine. I don't want to misquote or get anything out of order, so I'll just link to each post and give a brief summary.

I've been doing some research on this and as far as I can tell it seems to be a matter of a few fringe Hollow Earth believers who happen to be Mormon using scripture to prop up their beliefs. It's by no means a popular or official doctrine, but to the uninformed and ignorant the LDS Hollow Earth advocates can make their ramblings sound like they're supported by Mormon dogma. The link below is typical of what I found in my hunting:

http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27080&start=60

This catholic site brings up the same topic using a link to one of the discussions on the JREF forum as a starting point:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=777025

The consensus seems to be the LDS Hollow Earth believers are a narrow, tiny fringe.

 

[Slowvehicle]

You are just one of many who have been deceived as to the real agenda and reasons behind the push for legality.
LDS Leaders are not deceived, and are aware of the fight to come.
Homosexuality is the way Satan is using to frustrate the purposes of our Lord in bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind.
Anti discrimination cases already clog the courts and are but the tip of the iceberg of legal challenges designed to achieve the wicked purposes of Satan.
Amongst the destruction, misery and suffering which is coming, we will fight evil till the end of this world as we know it.

From October 2013 Conference, Apostle Dallin H. Oaks confirms: "the marriage of a man and a woman is necessary for the accomplishment of God’s plan. Only this marriage will provide the approved setting for mortal birth and to prepare family members for eternal life."

I wonder what happened to "ignoring" what you consider to be "immorality"? Why are you so interested in removing others' freedoms, freedoms that do not affect you in any way?

I truly, honestly wish that you would consider the question about the Shaira-enforcing nooligans in London. Would you grant them the right to tell you (and the rest of your sect) how you (and the rest of your sect) must act in their private lives? Would you calmly go along with being told that your splinter sect of xianism was the work of "Satan"?

 

[turingtest]

You are just one of many who have been deceived as to the real agenda and reasons behind the push for legality.
LDS Leaders are not deceived, and are aware of the fight to come.
Homosexuality is the way Satan is using to frustrate the purposes of our Lord in bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind.
Anti discrimination cases already clog the courts and are but the tip of the iceberg of legal challenges designed to achieve the wicked purposes of Satan.
Amongst the destruction, misery and suffering which is coming, we will fight evil till the end of this world as we know it.

From October 2013 Conference, Apostle Dallin H. Oaks confirms: "the marriage of a man and a woman is necessary for the accomplishment of God’s plan. Only this marriage will provide the approved setting for mortal birth and to prepare family members for eternal life."

I doubt there's a religion in the world that doesn't think (and preach) that they have exclusive title to "The Truth." There are many besides your own that maintain that deviance from their preached Truth will lead to "destruction, misery and suffering." The question is, why do you think your beliefs should have legal primacy? AFAICT, all you're saying is "we're right because we're right, and that gives us the right." Do you really think it advances a discussion to simply stand on tautology? Or could it be that you're not interested in advancing the discussion, because progress in it (or, really, anything) is not in your religion's interest?

This isn't meant to be an insulting question; I'm genuinely curious as to how you can square such an obvious circle.

 

[halleyscomet]

So if the paranoid "slippery slope" arguments that gay marriage would lead to polygamy and human-livestock marriage are correct, then shouldn't the mormons be doing everything they can to pass gay marriage wherever possible?

According to the Irreligiosophy podcast there are conservative Mormons, some of them outside the LDS, who are advocating just that.

 

[halleyscomet]

It turns out not only are there fringe Mormons who believe the Earth is hollow, there are some who believe Cain is Bigfoot.

Neither of these however appear to be church doctrine.

Mormon Bigfoot Genesis Theory

wacky Mormon Bigfoot obsessions

 

[Craig4]

You are just one of many who have been deceived as to the real agenda and reasons behind the push for legality.
LDS Leaders are not deceived, and are aware of the fight to come.
Homosexuality is the way Satan is using to frustrate the purposes of our Lord in bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind.
Anti discrimination cases already clog the courts and are but the tip of the iceberg of legal challenges designed to achieve the wicked purposes of Satan.
Amongst the destruction, misery and suffering which is coming, we will fight evil till the end of this world as we know it.

From October 2013 Conference, Apostle Dallin H. Oaks confirms: "the marriage of a man and a woman is necessary for the accomplishment of God’s plan. Only this marriage will provide the approved setting for mortal birth and to prepare family members for eternal life."

Look, absent a god coming down and telling us his views and making a case as to why said god has authority to govern, this is all just superstition. You are suggesting that matters of law and public policy should be dictated by nothing more compelling than your belief in the super natural. Why should the law force consenting adults to conform to beliefs they don't share?

 

[Janadele]

Loss Leader... further to your previous enquiry:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-m?lang=eng

Jesus discourses on the Second Coming of the Son of Man, and the destruction of the wicked.

 

[pakeha]

So if the paranoid "slippery slope" arguments that gay marriage would lead to polygamy and human-livestock marriage are correct, then shouldn't the mormons be doing everything they can to pass gay marriage wherever possible?

According to the Irreligiosophy podcast there are conservative Mormons, some of them outside the LDS, who are advocating just that.

That IS amusing.
But on a more serious note, in the LDS is anal sex allowed between a man and woman married to each other?