LDS II: The Mormons

[quixotecoyote]

Probably you've seen it because a new poster is posting a lot of anti-gay material from a Mormon viewpoint.

And since that's the case, them doing the same old song-and-dance all over again is worth some condescension and derision. That is, they did their best to promote bigotry and discrimination until society moved on and then re-wrote the supposedly god-given rules they lived by in order not to get left behind. Now round 2.

 

[steve s]

I think it's partly the fact that it took them so long to catch up with the rest of the country. The civil rights movement took place in the '60s, but the LDS didn't act until 1978.
Also, they talk about their inerrant teachings, and then change those teachings when it's clear they're in the wrong.

Steve S

 

[Chernobyl X1]

What your are saying is, the Martin Luther Kings, the civil rights movements, the protests, the riots, the desegregation, and the social change demands from the blacks in the 60's, had nothing to do with change in some offshoot Christian religion. It was a "revelation" of an invisible being that effected it regarding church policies?

Do you not see the problem here?

The ridicule the Mormon church gets is brought upon itself by their silly actions.

 

[AdMan]

I've seen an awful lot of seeming condescension towards the 1970's revelation in the LDS church in regards to dark skin.

I would think the people in this forum would like a church to abandon racist doctrine.

So this mocking attitude somewhat perplexes me. It was this revelation that allowed the Mormon church I joined in the late 80's to be very active in trying to welcome in black members rather than exclude them. This would seem to me to be a step in the right direction for a large church.

So why all the snark about this?

I swear this and the obsession some people have over the undergarments will always mystify me.

Certainly it was a step in the right direction, but you're ignoring the fact that they were pushed there through societal pressure.

No societal pressure, they'd likely still be as bigoted and racist as they had been.

And, yes, there are parallels to what's going on now with the Mormons' attitude toward gays. They are only starting to change--and will only change--because of societal pressure, not because of any magical "revelation".

So the longer they fight this, the more mocking they deserve.

 

[Travis]

Probably you've seen it because a new poster is posting a lot of anti-gay material from a Mormon viewpoint.

And since that's the case, them doing the same old song-and-dance all over again is worth some condescension and derision. That is, they did their best to promote bigotry and discrimination until society moved on and then re-wrote the supposedly god-given rules they lived by in order not to get left behind. Now round 2.

Yes but that is what all the churches do. They move on as society does but pretend that it is actually God telling them to. Why is the LDS church singled out for this?

I think it's partly the fact that it took them so long to catch up with the rest of the country. The civil rights movement took place in the '60s, but the LDS didn't act until 1978.
Also, they talk about their inerrant teachings, and then change those teachings when it's clear they're in the wrong.

Steve S

Hmm, I remember some baptist churches teaching some abhorrent things in the 1980's. My family was shopping around for a church at the time and we were mightily put off by them and the local Lutheran church. When we found the LDS church it was by far the least filled with hate and antipathy.

What your are saying is, the Martin Luther Kings, the civil rights movements, the protests, the riots, the desegregation, and the social change demands from the blacks in the 60's, had nothing to do with change in some offshoot Christian religion. It was a "revelation" of an invisible being that effected it regarding church policies?

Do you not see the problem here?

No, I really don't. Do you really think it would be better if they hadn't had this "revelation" and still excluded black people from their priesthood ranks?

If they had a new revelation next year that gays are awesome would you mock them endlessly for it over the following decades?

Certainly it was a step in the right direction, but you're ignoring the fact that they were pushed there through societal pressure.

No societal pressure, they'd likely still be as bigoted and racist as they had been.

Well duh. That's how all the churches evolve. Do you think if society hadn't moved on the Catholic church wouldn't still be burning witches?

 

[AdMan]

Well duh. That's how all the churches evolve. Do you think if society hadn't moved on the Catholic church wouldn't still be burning witches?

Well, duh. So we shouldn't be snarky about how racist and bigoted the Mormon church is and has been because they also, like other churches, respond to societal pressures?

I fail to understand what point you are making, exactly.

 

[Chernobyl X1]

No, I really don't. Do you really think it would be better if they hadn't had this "revelation" and still excluded black people from their priesthood ranks?

I think lying to the members of a religious sect, who expect their church leaders to be truthful. is deplorable. That works for any and all religious sects. The Mormon religion was founded on lies and the powers that be continue to lie to it's members.

Add to the fact that they put their sect back on the radar with their support of prop 8 in California. While other religious sects opposed the measure. This alone shows the progressiveness of those sects to show it's acceptance of the equality of all persons, regardless of sex (the last bastion of equal rights). On the other hand it showed the same bigoted, out of touch nature of the Mormon sect. This sect will only bend when it has nowhere else to run on an issue, no matter how wrong it is on that issue.

Calling it "revelation" to save face on the black issue was a despicable tactic. It will be interesting to see how the Mormon sect saves face on the gay equality issue.

Just as a point of interest, lets pretend the 60's never happened. By 1978, the U.S still had segregation and the equal rights issue went away. Do you believe the LDS would have had a "revelation"?

 

[Meed]

Got to agree with Travis on this.

Also I'll add that we have preachers and missionaries of various types on campus here and that I've always found the Mormons to be pleasant, while the hate-spewing types tend to be Baptists.

 

[Meed]

Well, duh. So we shouldn't be snarky about how racist and bigoted the Mormon church is and has been because they also, like other churches, respond to societal pressures?

I fail to understand what point you are making, exactly.

I have no problem with this. I only take issue with people who single out Mormons as being more ignorant than or crazier than the other major US Christian groups. I'm not sure if it applies to members of this forum, but it's definitely something I've encountered a lot in meatspace.

 

[AdMan]

Got to agree with Travis on this.

On what? Mormons are all nice and pleasant and non-racist following their "revelation"?

 

[quixotecoyote]

Yes but that is what all the churches do. They move on as society does but pretend that it is actually God telling them to. Why is the LDS church singled out for this?

Who's singling anything out?

You're hearing it because we have a prolific mormon poster beating the anti-gay mormon drum. So there's a lot of derision for the Mormon regressiveness and blatantly dishonest theological revisionism.

Go to any of the threads about the new Pope and you'll find plenty of people ragging on the Catholic Church for having a new PR stunt but plenty of the same old ********.

Go to any of the threads about the latest ******** from *name an celebrity evangelist* and you'll see pushback on that too.

Mormons aren't being singled out. A Mormon is being responded to.

 

[Meed]

On what? Mormons are all nice and pleasant and non-racist following their "revelation"?

I think I clarified this in my last post.

 

[Meed]

Who's singling anything out?

You're hearing it because we have a prolific mormon poster beating the anti-gay mormon drum. So there's a lot of derision for the Mormon regressiveness and blatantly dishonest theological revisionism.

Go to any of the threads about the new Pope and you'll find plenty of people ragging on the Catholic Church for having a new PR stunt but plenty of the same old ********.

Go to any of the threads about the latest ******** from *name an celebrity evangelist* and you'll see pushback on that too.

Mormons aren't being singled out. A Mormon is being responded to.

Huh? If this thread is supposed to be about another thread then that should be clarified. It wasn't even clear to me whether the topic was supposed to be about JREF posters specifically. Nowhere in the OP are these things stated and I haven't read the thread you're talking about so any obvious connections are lost on me.

If we're just speaking generally, then I'd say that I often do encounter people who single Mormons out in certain ways.

 

[Aepervius]

I've seen an awful lot of seeming condescension towards the 1970's revelation in the LDS church in regards to dark skin.

I would think the people in this forum would like a church to abandon racist doctrine.

So this mocking attitude somewhat perplexes me. It was this revelation that allowed the Mormon church I joined in the late 80's to be very active in trying to welcome in black members rather than exclude them. This would seem to me to be a step in the right direction for a large church.

So why all the snark about this?



I swear this and the obsession some people have over the undergarments will always mystify me.

undergarment : because it is funny. Sometimes we mock transubstantiation , sainthood, Xenu, and other religion/sects quirk.

Racis: this is especially egregerious due to a variety of reason. Church and christian church in particular are supposed to hold moral high, give other cheek , respect neighbor etc... Racism , and anti gay rants fly in the face of that, and the justification against it , particularly for racism are beyond flimsy.

by this time and age, anti-some-category-of-human-with-normal-behavior-I-don't-like has no moral justifications.

 

[Pup]

I have no problem with this. I only take issue with people who single out Mormons as being more ignorant than or crazier than the other major US Christian groups. I'm not sure if it applies to members of this forum, but it's definitely something I've encountered a lot in meatspace.

I actually think some of it is because of those other US Christian groups, who have traditionally spread as much if not more hatred toward Mormons than even atheists and Muslims. Other non-Mormons pick up on that and go along, even if they're not members of those religions. They don't realize they're falling for the other religions' desire to set the agenda that "normal" Christian wierdness is normal, but those Mormons are crazy and should be persecuted--a belief going back to the founding of the church, when Protestants liked to kill Mormons and burn their homes to drive them away.

Most people in the US have been raised around Protestants and Catholics, so Mormon beliefs do stand out as strange in contrast, unless one removes one's cultural filters. For former Christians, some of it may be soothing--a way of thinking: I may have been gullible, but at least I didn't believe stuff as crazy as those stupid Mormons. Some of it is of course fair and not Mormon-specific, as shown by the outcry over the Duck Dynasty interview, which targeted the same kind of bigotry coming from a non-Mormon.

 

[pakeha]

...Well duh. That's how all the churches evolve. Do you think if society hadn't moved on the Catholic church wouldn't still be burning witches?

Actually, the witch trials were more of a Protestant phenomenon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_trials_in_the_early_modern_period

You'll find a wealth of references in that article, Travis. Enjoy!

 

[eight bits]

Travis

Do you think if society hadn't moved on the Catholic church wouldn't still be burning witches?

So, just to recap, you pursue your complaint against anti-Mormon bigotry by promoting anti-Catholic bigotry.

Looking on the bright side, you have the answer to your topic question within yourself. Whatever causes you to associate the Catholic religion particularly with a failing found throughout Europe, under both Catholic and non-Catholic governance (and practiced today in Africa by some non-Catholics), then that is the engine that drives anti-Mormon bigotry.

As soon as you understand your own motives, other people's will be like an open book to you.

 

[catsmate]

Well duh. That's how all the churches evolve. Do you think if society hadn't moved on the Catholic church wouldn't still be burning witches?

Most executions of alleged witches were by secular authorities; those religious in origin were mainly carried out by protestant sects. In the period up to the Early Modern Era (the "middle ages") for example popes Leo VII and Gregory VII spoke out against execution of alleged witches.
In fact until 1484 and Summis desiderantes affectibus the church was generally ambivalent about witchcraft. In the period 1500-1800 most of the executions for witchcraft in Europe were in the protestant areas of Germany and Switzerland (about two thirds of the ~12,000 documented executions and an estimated half of the ≈50,000 executions believed to have happened).
In the same period Spain saw six documented executions for witchcraft and perhaps fifty in total.

 

[Travis]

Well, duh. So we shouldn't be snarky about how racist and bigoted the Mormon church is and has been because they also, like other churches, respond to societal pressures?

I fail to understand what point you are making, exactly.

Is there any evidence the Mormon church is racist now?

I saw no racism in the time I was in the church.

I think lying to the members of a religious sect, who expect their church leaders to be truthful. is deplorable. That works for any and all religious sects. The Mormon religion was founded on lies and the powers that be continue to lie to it's members.

So the LDS church is special in this regard....how?

Add to the fact that they put their sect back on the radar with their support of prop 8 in California. While other religious sects opposed the measure.

And this automatically means all Mormons are homophobes? That there aren't members of the church agitating that they change their ways and accept homosexuality? Are you saying my mom and dad don't exist?

Heck when I was in the church I don't remember homosexuality being brought up once. It was simply not something anyone ever talked about.

This alone shows the progressiveness of those sects to show it's acceptance of the equality of all persons, regardless of sex (the last bastion of equal rights). On the other hand it showed the same bigoted, out of touch nature of the Mormon sect. This sect will only bend when it has nowhere else to run on an issue, no matter how wrong it is on that issue.

Interesting. Most of the largest anti-gay agitators from the pulpit are not Mormon. Look up Bryan Fischer, Robert Oscar Lopez, Mat Staver or Gordon Klingenschmitt. Heck just read through this.

On the other hand my mom, who still goes to church every Sunday, had no idea the church was supporting prop 8 until it was reported on the TV news. Because it literally never came up in church in any capacity.

Calling it "revelation" to save face on the black issue was a despicable tactic.

You think other religions don't act like they are acting from divine will? Seriously I don't get why this upsets you so much.

It will be interesting to see how the Mormon sect saves face on the gay equality issue.

They'll have another revelation at some point. Would you rather that doesn't happen?

Just as a point of interest, lets pretend the 60's never happened. By 1978, the U.S still had segregation and the equal rights issue went away. Do you believe the LDS would have had a "revelation"?

That would be an alternate history so divergent from this one I'm not sure we could know anything. I do know if the church was racist my own family would not have converted in 1986. Provided my family exists in this alternate timeline.

Actually, the witch trials were more of a Protestant phenomenon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_trials_in_the_early_modern_period

You'll find a wealth of references in that article, Travis. Enjoy!

Yes, because no one was ever killed horribly by the Catholic Church.

I think you missed my point. My point was that religion changes when society changes.

Travis


So, just to recap, you pursue your complaint against anti-Mormon bigotry by promoting anti-Catholic bigotry.

Huh? Where am I promoting anti-Catholic bigotry?

 

[Chernobyl X1]

So the LDS church is special in this regard....how?



And this automatically means all Mormons are homophobes? That there aren't members of the church agitating that they change their ways and accept homosexuality? Are you saying my mom and dad don't exist?

Heck when I was in the church I don't remember homosexuality being brought up once. It was simply not something anyone ever talked about.



Interesting. Most of the largest anti-gay agitators from the pulpit are not Mormon. Look up Bryan Fischer, Robert Oscar Lopez, Mat Staver or Gordon Klingenschmitt. Heck just read through this.

On the other hand my mom, who still goes to church every Sunday, had no idea the church was supporting prop 8 until it was reported on the TV news. Because it literally never came up in church in any capacity.



You think other religions don't act like they are acting from divine will? Seriously I don't get why this upsets you so much.



They'll have another revelation at some point. Would you rather that doesn't happen?



That would be an alternate history so divergent from this one I'm not sure we could know anything. I do know if the church was racist my own family would not have converted in 1986. Provided my family exists in this alternate timeline.

Instead of trying to address each point individually I will make this point. Anyone that joins a religious sect, It doesn't matter what cult/sect a person chooses, should, at the very least, find out the history of that cult/sect. How they started. What kind of people they welcome into the fold. Find out what they stand for. What their views are on hot topic issues. To not do so is dangerous. To blindly join sects without knowing what they are about makes no sense. But that is what churches prey on, uneducated minds, and the gullible.

You say your mother only learned about the churches view when the prop 8 issue became news. Also she has been a member of the LDS since the 80's. Will you make the claim you or she didn't know about "The Family: A Proclamation to the World" that the LDS released in 1995? I don't see how your claim is you are a Mormon and not know the official stance, which it made official in its proclamation 18 years ago, of your own church on that issue.

You didn't follow through if that changed her perception of, or willingness to accept the views of her church. Any member that didn't fight the Mormon church, or leave it over this issue accepts it.