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LDS II: The Mormons

You're not missing anything. You got exactly what I was trying to convey by posting the link, someone apologizing for a mistake.

I think the letter is a good example of someone realizing they had overstepped their bounds when interacting with a non-Mormon. This woman clearly has affection for the person she treated badly but she let judgmental attitudes hold sway during the BBQ.

In a way, I see the exchange as symbolic of the LDS church's relationship towards marriage equality. Right now, we're at the BBQ. The LDS leadership is just starting to realize their behavior in relationship to Prop 8 was over the top and out of bounds. The party is still going on, and the non-Mormon is still being treated badly, but realization is starting to creep in.

Eventually, the LDS leadership is going to metaphorically write the apology letter. Since they still haven't quite reached that stage in race relations, it'll probably take them a bit longer than the median population.

While I'm tempted to compare the family members talking to the Grandmother to LDS members, I think I've strained the analogy far enough.

I'm sorry, I was going to respond to this line of thinking but I have no idea what to do with it. It is a kindly thought (LDS leaders = grandma) but is empty of any kind of real insight or knowledge of what LDS leadership really thinks or might do.

I think that people being treated unfairly today deserve responses to their treatment today and not vague promises of a better future time. That seems like a mine that has been pretty well tapped isn't it?
 
It has been a long BBQ.

Ensign magazine posted some LDS perspectives back in 1980 on the issue of the day, which was approval of a constitutional amendment called the ERA. This perceived great moral threat to the country that caused the church to align its resources toward its defeat was worded:
The Equal Rights Amendment reads, in its entirety, as follows:

Section 1: Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

Section 2: The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

Section 3: This amendment shall take effect two years after the date of ratification.

The article itself offers a good perspective on LDS opposition to gay marriage. Opposition that has remained consistent for a long time. It is more than thought of as 'sinful', it represents an undermining of an entire philosophy about family life that goes back to 'pre existence'.

Back in 1980 they opined:
9. What would be the impact of the ERA on homosexual marriages?

In hearings before the Senate Judiciary Committee, Paul A. Freund of Harvard Law School testified: “Indeed if the law must be as undiscriminating concerning sex as it is toward race, it would follow that laws outlawing wedlock between members of the same sex would be as invalid as laws forbidding miscegenation [interracial marriages]” (Senate Report 92–689, p. 47).

Passage of the ERA would carry with it the risk of extending constitutional protection to immoral same-sex—lesbian and homosexual—marriages. The argument of a homosexual male, for example, would be: “If a woman can legally marry a man, then equal treatment demands that I be allowed to do the same.” Under the ERA, states could be forced to legally recognize and protect such marriages. A result would be that any children brought to such a marriage by either partner or adopted by the couple could legally be raised in a homosexual home. While it cannot be stated with certainty whether this or any other consequence will result from the vague language of the amendment, the possibility cannot be avoided.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1980/03/the-church-and-the-proposed-equal-rights-amendment-a-moral-issue
 
You and others have repeatedly attacked my sources as lacking in credibility and of being anti-gay marriage propaganda "rags."


Jeez, why do think that is?

Because that is all they are. You have repeatedly failed to cite any legitimately objective source. You are being disingenuous if you claim you have.
 
But a great analogy at that! :D

Thank you.

For everyone in the thread:

Since this is a thread about the LDS church, I have a few questions for a novel I'm working on.

Assume the following situation:

An LDS woman marries a man who is Methodist. Despite both of them having met in New York City, he moves his entire livelihood to Utah so she can live near her family.

The Woman's mother, we'll call her Edith, is a VERY active LDS member who contributes a rather large tithe from her late husband's estate. She is prone to the more conservative aspects of the church. While still an LDS member, she might be more comfortable in one of the fundamentalist denominations.

Edith beings spreading the claim that her sin-in-law is an alcoholic. There is no real evidence he is an alcoholic aside from the observed casual drinking Edith offers as "proof." He offers to go cold turkey for Lent to prove he's not an alcoholic. He does so, and Edith insists the fact that he's not dying from delirium tremens is proof he's still drinking on the sly.

How would the LDS leadership react to Edith?

Would they be tempted to advise she moderate her behavior and tone down or stop the accusations?

Would they be likely to support her and side with her, even as evidence mounts that she's either lying or delusional?

How extreme must her behavior get before the local LDS leaders being to distance themselves from her?

How would the LDS members in the community likely react to the situation?

How would they be EXPECTED to react?

At what point would the community distance itself from Edith?
 
It's a miracle!
 

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Faith precedes miracles:
LDS Sister Missionary prays for water to stop rising... the water retreats.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=10...sing-concern-for-typhoon-survivors&fm=home_pa

All LDS Missionaries serving in the Philipines survived the devastating Typhoon.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...r-faith-and-what-it-means-to-be-prepared.html

She should have prayed for her god not to have murdered those 3600 people to begin with. Faith didn't help much there.
 
Faith precedes miracles:
LDS Sister Missionary prays for water to stop rising... the water retreats.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=10...sing-concern-for-typhoon-survivors&fm=home_pa

All LDS Missionaries serving in the Philipines survived the devastating Typhoon.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...r-faith-and-what-it-means-to-be-prepared.html

Tell me, were they incapable of prayer to save the lives of the thousands of others that died, and drowned? Or does your god only save those who believe?

I would find it more 'miraculous' if the LDS missionaries had prayed, and the Typhoon simply disappeared before hitting the islands. Otherwise, you have some nice Anecdotal evidence, which means nothing.
 
Faith precedes miracles:
LDS Sister Missionary prays for water to stop rising... the water retreats.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=10...sing-concern-for-typhoon-survivors&fm=home_pa

All LDS Missionaries serving in the Philipines survived the devastating Typhoon.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...r-faith-and-what-it-means-to-be-prepared.html

Of course, the people who drowned while praying won't get articles written about them.

Confirmation Bias is a powerful delusion.
 
It is important to point out that those sources you quoted were biased sites with an anti-gay agenda that were intentionally misrepresenting scientific research.

It seems that all opposition to your position is biased. Here's still another "biased" report (written by Dale O'Leary and entitled "Science, myths and same-sex parenting," Oct., 2007; see link).

["To support their argument gay activists] present the courts with numerous studies claiming to prove that children raised by persons with same-sex attractions are just as happy, healthy, and academically successful as children raised by their married biological parents."

O'Leary's report notes that Patricia Morgan, in her book Children as Trophies?, "reviews 144 published studies on same-sex parenting and concludes that it fosters homosexual behavior, confused gender roles, and increased likelihood of serious psychological problems later in life." Morgan, a European sociologist, provides extensive footnotes in her book.

Piece by piece, Morgan deconstructs the homosexuals' arguments. You can read all about it (not that you will want to) at:

www/mercatornet.com/articles/...science-myths-and-same-sex-parent...
 
A) Water always stops rising at some point.
B) Did they know the storm was coming and opt not to do something stupid?
Color me unimpressed.
 
Faith precedes miracles:
LDS Sister Missionary prays for water to stop rising... the water retreats.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=10...sing-concern-for-typhoon-survivors&fm=home_pa

All LDS Missionaries serving in the Philipines survived the devastating Typhoon.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...r-faith-and-what-it-means-to-be-prepared.html

If God chose to save certain people then God chose not to save all those who died. So you're saying that God just deliberately murdered thousands of people, many of whom would have had just as much faith, been just as deserving and prayed just as sincerely as this woman.
 
It seems that all opposition to your position is biased. Here's still another "biased" report (written by Dale O'Leary and entitled "Science, myths and same-sex parenting," Oct., 2007; see link).

["To support their argument gay activists] present the courts with numerous studies claiming to prove that children raised by persons with same-sex attractions are just as happy, healthy, and academically successful as children raised by their married biological parents."

O'Leary's report notes that Patricia Morgan, in her book Children as Trophies?, "reviews 144 published studies on same-sex parenting and concludes that it fosters homosexual behavior, confused gender roles, and increased likelihood of serious psychological problems later in life." Morgan, a European sociologist, provides extensive footnotes in her book.

Piece by piece, Morgan deconstructs the homosexuals' arguments. You can read all about it (not that you will want to) at:

www/mercatornet.com/articles/...science-myths-and-same-sex-parent...

Surprise!

it's a bad link!

Any chance of posting a link to the actual article, or do I have to go hunting it myself?
 
...Interesting that, in a thread about "LDS" doctrine, a Catholic Author's opinion piece is offered as "evidence" that marriage equality will be bad for "the children".

The actual article can be found here:
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/science_myths_and_same_sex_parenting

Apparently,according to the author, babies can cause lesbians to stop loving each other. OTH, according to the author, same-gender couples who solve their child-real;ted issues are made stronger thereby.
When spouses "fall in love" with their children, it doesn't diminish their love for the other spouse, but enriches it. Same-sex couples may seek children hoping they will provide this same effect, but will more often find them an obstacle to and a competitor for affection. And when persons with SSA do succeed in solving their deep problems and meeting their unmet needs, it tends to diminish the attractions that form the very basis of their relationship, and likewise undoes it.

Surprisingly, no support is offered for the author's opinion.

Apparently, according to the author, boys raised by lesbians cannot develop traditionally sterotypical male identities, because lesbians hate and distrust masculinity, and women more thoroughly discourage gender-typing play. Which, according to the author, is a bad thing, because constructionist ideology.

The article is worth a read, if only as a textbook example of circular reading and special pleading--because "marriage" (in the Catholic millieu) is the procreative union of one stereotypical man and one stereotypical woman, dutifully carrying out their western-world stereotypical rôles, anything different is, by definition "bad"; and it is "bad" because it is, in fact, different.

Her opinion, presented as a conclusion:

But no matter how many people praise "family diversity," children being raised by parents with SSA will always know that it's not the same, and someday they will resent how their needs have been sacrificed for the sake of a social experiment. In a sad irony, the more that cultural elites insist that there is nothing wrong with their situation, the more these children will feel guilty about resenting it, and this guilt will lead them to conclude that there must be something wrong with them.

For fun there is even more of the same at
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/marriage_religious_liberty_and_the_grand_bargain

There is a fun discussion to be had about the value and usefulness of, and the societal problems caused by, stereotypical gender rôles, but this may not be the thread for it. My parents, bless their hearts, raised me to look upon work as, not "man's" work, or "woman's" work, but "my" work. I was expected to cook and keep a house clean with the same skill and dedication as I was expected to fell timber and repair the family cars. I was expected to sew, and darn, and do laundry, with the same joy and competence as I was expected to pour concrete, lay tile, and hoe. How much better off would I be if I were inculcated into a traditionally stereotypical gender rôle? As it is, my partner gets to call me the "domestic goddess" of our arrangement.

[/OT]
 
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It seems that all opposition to your position is biased.
It only appears that way to you because you do not refer to the primary scientific sources, which I am using. I welcome an honest discussion of the data, you may start by referring back to my crituque of the regenerus paper. Would you care to explain why they use simple t tests on such numerous data sets? Why didn't they use a bonferoni correction?
Why do they not compare married gay parents to married straight parents?
How do they control for divorce, For income?
What does it mean that there are different results for lesbians vs. gay men? Do this imply there is a difference there or does it suggest the difference is statistical anomolies.

Beyond all this none of this matters.
We know you will not deny poor parents from marrying. Why deny gays?

Here's still another "biased" report (written by Dale O'Leary and entitled "Science, myths and same-sex parenting," Oct., 2007; see link).

["To support their argument gay activists] present the courts with numerous studies claiming to prove that children raised by persons with same-sex attractions are just as happy, healthy, and academically successful as children raised by their married biological parents."

O'Leary's report notes that Patricia Morgan, in her book Children as Trophies?, "reviews 144 published studies on same-sex parenting and concludes that it fosters homosexual behavior, confused gender roles, and increased likelihood of serious psychological problems later in life." Morgan, a European sociologist, provides extensive footnotes in her book.

Piece by piece, Morgan deconstructs the homosexuals' arguments. You can read all about it (not that you will want to) at:

www/mercatornet.com/articles/...science-myths-and-same-sex-parent...
Once again, you link to a reference of a book that supposedly reviews primary research. This is not equivilent to actually reading the studies. I have already shown several times before how your sources distort and lie about the science, why would you think another hearsay article to be any different?

For what reason do you avoid reading the original research?
 
If God chose to save certain people then God chose not to save all those who died. So you're saying that God just deliberately murdered thousands of people, many of whom would have had just as much faith, been just as deserving and prayed just as sincerely as this woman.

If 'god' could have prevented a single death, and it chose to do not so, it is unspeakably evil.
 

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