LDS II: The Mormons

[RandFan]

...What's your view on interracial marriage Janadele?

The confounding of the language and racial characteristics did not happen by chance. The Lord God has His reasons for initiating such segregation. What our circumstances of race and language would be whilst in mortality was first determined in our pre mortal existence. Personally, my family, friends, and acquaintances are of Anglo-Saxon descent.

Those who can be made to believe in absurdities...

 

[joobz]

Kindly note that I haven't said "homosexuals are bad parents." I have
quoted sources indicating that children do better when raised by a father and a mother. Please don't misquote me (which you do again in the next para.).

It is important to point out that those sources you quoted were biased sites with an anti-gay agenda that were intentionally misrepresenting scientific research.

 

[skyrider44]

. . .Each of the arguments made against gay marriage have been chipped away by statistics, until all that's left is religious belief. You have failed to demonstrate actual societal harm to children or families from gay marriage.

That's not quite right. The journal Review of the Economics of Households reports a study it conducted which found that "Children living with married, opposite-sex parents were more likely to graduate from high school than peers living with cohabiting, single, or same-sex parents.

Christine Kim said re. the journal report: "This finding is consistent with decades of research on children's educational outcomes and family structure. However, this study is relatively unique because it uses data (a 20% sample of the 2006 Canadian census) that offers a sufficiently large nationally representative sample of children (ages 17-22) in same-sex-parent homes. So far, only four studies analyzing three U.S. databases offer such or similar data."
http://blog.heritage.org/2013/11/06/new-study-on-high-school-graduation-rates-gender-an...

 

[RandFan]

That's not quite right. The journal Review of the Economics of Households reports a study it conducted which found that "Children living with married, opposite-sex parents were more likely to graduate from high school than peers living with cohabiting, single, or same-sex parents.

Christine Kim said re. the journal report: "This finding is consistent with decades of research on children's educational outcomes and family structure. However, this study is relatively unique because it uses data (a 20% sample of the 2006 Canadian census) that offers a sufficiently large nationally representative sample of children (ages 17-22) in same-sex-parent homes. So far, only four studies analyzing three U.S. databases offer such or similar data."
http://blog.heritage.org/2013/11/06/new-study-on-high-school-graduation-rates-gender-an...

Once again, having spent money and urged it's members to support prop 8 the Mormon church backed defendants in the trial did not provide any scientific data to support the notion that children raised by gays and lesbians are in any way at greater risk of harm than children raised by heterosexuals. That was the church's great opportunity to demonstrate that there is any such harm...

BUT SO WHAT?

Seriously, why won't you address the elephant in the room. We know that the fact that children born to poor parents are by definition born disadvantaged and that is not a valid reason to prevent poor people from marrying. So why are you talking about children at all? What is your point? What is your argument?

If you are sincerely interested in the health and well being of children then you are looking at the wrong group.

 

[Janadele]

Seriously? It means that the thread had gotten so long that some people were having trouble loading it, so it was closed and a second thread on the same topic was opened.

If that is true, then "Mormonic Boogaloo" should not be included in the title of this 2nd Thread as that is not within the title of the original.

 

[joobz]

That's not quite right. The journal Review of the Economics of Households reports a study it conducted which found that "Children living with married, opposite-sex parents were more likely to graduate from high school than peers living with cohabiting, single, or same-sex parents.

Christine Kim said re. the journal report: "This finding is consistent with decades of research on children's educational outcomes and family structure. However, this study is relatively unique because it uses data (a 20% sample of the 2006 Canadian census) that offers a sufficiently large nationally representative sample of children (ages 17-22) in same-sex-parent homes. So far, only four studies analyzing three U.S. databases offer such or similar data."
http://blog.heritage.org/2013/11/06/new-study-on-high-school-graduation-rates-gender-an...

Please post from the article directly and provide a link to the article.
Christine Kim is unreliable as a source, as she intentionally distorts the claims from reports, as I and others have already shown.
It doesn't help your argument to continually rely on sources who are dishonest.

 

[skyrider44]

It is important to point out that those sources you quoted were biased sites with an anti-gay agenda that were intentionally misrepresenting scientific research.

I understand. Any study/source/article that opposes same-sex marriage is biased--even articles by the famed Mayo Clinic.

During this long discussion, same-sex marriage proponents haven't said anything (that I'm aware of) about the need for boys and girls to have male and female role models respectively. In the article "Growing Up With Two Moms: The Untold Children's View," a boy (Robert Lopez) who had that experience, tells his story.

Excerpts: "Quite simply, growing up with gay parents [lesbians] was very difficult. . . . I was confused. When your home life is so drastically different from everyone around you, in a fundamental way striking at basic physical relations, you grow up weird. I have no mental health disorders. . .I just grew up in a house so unusual that I was destined to exist as a social outcast."

"My peers learned all the unwritten rules of decorum and body language in their homes; they understood what was appropriate to say in certain settings and what wasn't. . . ."

"Even now, I have very few friends and often feel as though I do not understand people because of the unspoken gender cues that everyone around me, even gays raised in traditional homes, take for granted."

"Forty-one years I'd lived, and nobody--least of all gay activists--had wanted me to speak honestly about the complicated gay threads of my life."

I'm not saying that Mr. Lopez's experience is representative of all boys' experiences who are raised by lesbian parents. I am saying that appropriate role models are important for boys and girls. How does a girl, for example, learn to be a wife and mother if she is raised by two male gays?
http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/08/6065/

 

[Craig4]

The confounding of the language and racial characteristics did not happen by chance. The Lord God has His reasons for initiating such segregation. What our circumstances of race and language would be whilst in mortality was first determined in our pre mortal existence. Personally, my family, friends, and acquaintances are of Anglo-Saxon descent.

Or, Smith was a liar and a fraud (a charge you've done nothing to refute) and there is no reason to believe this. Hmm... Which is more likely?

 

[Loss Leader]

During this long discussion, same-sex marriage proponents haven't said anything (that I'm aware of) about the need for boys and girls to have male and female role models respectively.

Not having a male role model appears to have worked out for the President of the United States.

But this is all just a side show. My recent post attacking gay marriage appears to me to be the only logical argument that can be made from the Mormon perspective. The desire of some Mormons to avoid being labeled prejudiced is strong, but it is not laudable when it is not the truth.

 

[gabeygoat]

I've studied enough Sociology and Public Health to know about gay marriage. My dad is also a "Distinguished Professor" of Human Development and Family Science. In addition to all that, I have plenty of anecdotal evidence within my giant extended family. ALL of it points to the children of gay couples generally turning out a little bit wealthier, a little bit more 'intelligent' and a little bit more 'happy.'

All that said, Can we PLEASE move this discussion on? Is the only thing about LDS that JanAdelle and Skyrider want to pass on is intolerance? Jan is abhorrent on the issue, and Skyrider is at best, um, squishy on the issue. We get it. So, maybe we can now move on to other aspects of this faith?

 

[Cat Tale]

Those sources made it sound like the modern LDS church was denying they ever sanctioned polygamay. From what I can gather, the LDS church did issue such denials during the time period when there were a lot of legal headaches around polygamy, but the modern church no longer denies it as part of their past. Is this a correct description of the situation?

Interesting question. I've not done enough research into the practice of polygamy in the early days of the Church to really converse much about it. What I can tell you is that since I joined the church well over 20 years ago, the church has not been shy about admitting that we've practiced it. I mean, we don't stand upon the rooftops and shout it out, but it is talked about and discussed several times a year when discussing the "D&C and Church History," or the Teachings of Lorenzo Snow (both this year's course of study). I'm pretty sure I answered your question, if not let me know.

It's something that, if you give me a couple months, I can look into in my spare time cause it's one of those things I'm now interested in. In just a quick 5 minute search I did find some things that looked interesting in the Deseret News and other online newspapers. I should say, historic newspapers, not recent. I'll get back to you on that later.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

I understand. Any study/source/article that opposes same-sex marriage is biased--even articles by the famed Mayo Clinic.

It's been explained to you MANY TIMES that the study by the Mayo Clinic is not being doubted. The cherry-picking of individual quotes from the article, however is quite biased. Especially when the study itself points out that many of the problems that gays face- the serious problems you yourself point out- are indeed probably caused by the prejudice and social stigmatization homosexuals face in society, such as not being allowed to marry.

Stop pretending you don't understand this.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

During this long discussion, same-sex marriage proponents haven't said anything (that I'm aware of) about the need for boys and girls to have male and female role models respectively. In the article "Growing Up With Two Moms: The Untold Children's View," a boy (Robert Lopez) who had that experience, tells his story.

Excerpts: "Quite simply, growing up with gay parents [lesbians] was very difficult. . . . I was confused. When your home life is so drastically different from everyone around you, in a fundamental way striking at basic physical relations, you grow up weird. I have no mental health disorders. . .I just grew up in a house so unusual that I was destined to exist as a social outcast."

"My peers learned all the unwritten rules of decorum and body language in their homes; they understood what was appropriate to say in certain settings and what wasn't. . . ."

"Even now, I have very few friends and often feel as though I do not understand people because of the unspoken gender cues that everyone around me, even gays raised in traditional homes, take for granted."

"Forty-one years I'd lived, and nobody--least of all gay activists--had wanted me to speak honestly about the complicated gay threads of my life."

I'm not saying that Mr. Lopez's experience is representative of all boys' experiences who are raised by lesbian parents. I am saying that appropriate role models are important for boys and girls. How does a girl, for example, learn to be a wife and mother if she is raised by two male gays?
http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/08/6065/

These seem like the same problems one would expect from anyone raised by a single parent. I would imagine that being raised by two parents, even of the same gender, would be preferable in any case. The life experiences and secondary family resources would be greater for the child in question. Not ideal, of course, but better than not allowing a single gay parent to marry at all, don't you think?

 

[Foster Zygote]

I understand. Any study/source/article that opposes same-sex marriage is biased--even articles by the famed Mayo Clinic.

The Mayo Clinic page that you linked to does not oppose same-sex marriage. To claim so is dishonest.

During this long discussion, same-sex marriage proponents haven't said anything (that I'm aware of) about the need for boys and girls to have male and female role models respectively. In the article "Growing Up With Two Moms: The Untold Children's View," a boy (Robert Lopez) who had that experience, tells his story.

Excerpts: "Quite simply, growing up with gay parents [lesbians] was very difficult. . . . I was confused. When your home life is so drastically different from everyone around you, in a fundamental way striking at basic physical relations, you grow up weird. I have no mental health disorders. . .I just grew up in a house so unusual that I was destined to exist as a social outcast."

"My peers learned all the unwritten rules of decorum and body language in their homes; they understood what was appropriate to say in certain settings and what wasn't. . . ."

"Even now, I have very few friends and often feel as though I do not understand people because of the unspoken gender cues that everyone around me, even gays raised in traditional homes, take for granted."

"Forty-one years I'd lived, and nobody--least of all gay activists--had wanted me to speak honestly about the complicated gay threads of my life."

One man's experience doesn't amount to scientific evidence, it only amounts to anecdote. The things that Mr. Lopez reports could be unique to whatever aspects of his psychology lead him to think that his mother's lesbian partnership is to blame for his social awkwardness. What "unspoken gender cues" is he talking about?

I'm not saying that Mr. Lopez's experience is representative of all boys' experiences who are raised by lesbian parents.

The most that you can say is that it is representative of Mr. Lopez's experience.

I am saying that appropriate role models are important for boys and girls. How does a girl, for example, learn to be a wife and mother if she is raised by two male gays?

How did my brother-in-law, raised by a single mother, manage to become a loving father to three children without a male role model? I'm reminded of a line from a song: "It's no fun to be told that you can't blame your parents anymore."

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/08/6065/

Another biased source with a political agenda. The Witherspoon Institute funded the problematic Regnerus study.

 

[RandFan]

I'm not saying that Mr. Lopez's experience is representative of all boys' experiences who are raised by lesbian parents. I am saying that appropriate role models are important for boys and girls. How does a girl, for example, learn to be a wife and mother if she is raised by two male gays? http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/08/6065/

I grew up poor. My life was very difficult. I suffered neglect and abuse. I had both a mother AND a father. So what?

WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

So what if Mr. Lopez had a difficult life? What conclusions are we to infer from that fact? What conclusions are we to infer from the fact that poor children are more likely to be neglected and abused than children born to wealthy families? I reject your premise but even if we grant it. EVEN IF we grant it, what does that have to do with anything?

DO YOU HAVE A POINT?

 

[Foster Zygote]

How about an example of an individual experience that runs opposite to that of Robert Lopez?

Zach Wahls stated, in a speech made before the Iowa State Legislature, "In my 19 years, not once have I ever been confronted by an individual who realized independently that I was raised by a gay couple. And you know why? Because the sexual orientation of my parents has had zero affect on the content of my character."

Wahls is an Eagle Scout who attained a 99th percentile score on his college aptitude test.

I'm sorry that Robert Lopez feels so socially awkward, but how can we determine if his individual experience is the result of being raised by lesbian parents? Had he been raised by heterosexual parents, would he have managed to lose his virginity in high school? I know people who have blamed their parents for their own failings, why should Robert Lopez's personal account be taken as evidence that his lesbian mother is to blame for his disappointment with himself?

 

[bruto]

You can keep citing studies from conservative and religious sources till the cows come home. You may even be right some of the time (though I would not bank on it). The one thing you have not done, because I believe you cannot ever do it, is to demonstrate that adding the option of single sex marriage to the world as it actually exists will make anything worse.

Opponents of gay marriage are in a bind here. It is unacceptable to be, or at least to appear to be, anti-gay, to oppose the existing rights of homosexuals. But it leaves them nothing with which to oppose same sex marriage. We see the difficulty over and over here, the rhetoric of anti-homosexuality is recycled unapologetically as if it were applied only to the issue of marriage itself.

Even in places where gay marriage does not yet exist, gay people exist. Gay couples exist. Children of those people exist. Theoretical musings on the ideal are irrelevant if you are pretending you do not want to change the real.

Even if we were to stipulate (and it's only a stipulation here) that the children of gay couples are disadvantaged over the children of straight couples, not one iota of evidence has been presented that allowing those gay couples to marry will make the situation worse, rather than better.

Even if we were to stipulate (and it's only a stipulation here, and a tenuous one at that) that allowing gay marriage would increase the number of gay parental couples in the world, not one iota of evidence has been presented that this would decrease the number of children in heterosexual families.

Even if we were to stipulate (and remember it's only a stipulation here) that gay people are more promiscuous than straight people, not one iota of evidence has been presented that allowing those people to marry will make the situation worse, rather than better.

And so it goes. Reams of superfluous information have been presented that suggest, rightly or wrongly, what the ideal family is for children to grow up in. But nothing has been presented to suggest that adding single sex marriage to the civil options offered by society will make a single thing worse for anyone except for those jealous of the traditional definition of marriage.

Really, folks. It does not matter what the Mayo Clinic says (or what one or the other careless reader thinks it says) about the risk of homosexual practices. It does not matter what this or that organization says about what is risky or dirty or icky or sinful, or how they wish the world would be. None of it matters unless one is lying about what is being argued here. A small group of people want to achieve equality and rights that in many places are not yet theirs. The benefit to them is real, at least insofar as they believe it to be. If you want to argue against that, you need to show how in the real world of real people who really exist right now, society will sustain harm whose price offsets that benefit. As in many parts of the world, it has not happened in this thread. I don't think it can be.

On the other hand, the opposite has happened in many parts of the world. It's time to stop wondering and start looking around.

 

[RandFan]

How about an example of an individual experience that runs opposite to that of Robert Lopez?

Zach Wahls stated, in a speech made before the Iowa State Legislature, "In my 19 years, not once have I ever been confronted by an individual who realized independently that I was raised by a gay couple. And you know why? Because the sexual orientation of my parents has had zero affect on the content of my character."

Wahls is an Eagle Scout who attained a 99th percentile score on his college aptitude test.

I'm sorry that Robert Lopez feels so socially awkward, but how can we determine if his individual experience is the result of being raised by lesbian parents? Had he been raised by heterosexual parents, would he have managed to lose his virginity in high school? I know people who have blamed their parents for their own failings, why should Robert Lopez's personal account be taken as evidence that his lesbian mother is to blame for his disappointment with himself?

There are lots of such anecdotes. Children want to be loved and two parents seems to be the magic number. The evidence provided by council at the prop 8 trial was conclusive. No evidence was provided by the defense. That was their opportunity and suddenly the dog ate their paperwork.

But all of that is irrelevant. It is legal for gays and lesbians to have children. Marriage does not figure into the number of children that gays and lesbians are likely to have.

Skyridder won't answer the question. Can anyone else offer an answer? So, what if we were to grant his premise for argument sake? What possible difference does it make? What ramifications would that have on poor people whose children are measurably disadvantaged? What about single parents? What are we to do about this sub-prime situations?

We are missing a part of the equation. There's a great big gap. Is there anyone that can fill that in without special pleading?

 

[halleyscomet]

The confounding of the language and racial characteristics did not happen by chance. The Lord God has His reasons for initiating such segregation. What our circumstances of race and language would be whilst in mortality was first determined in our pre mortal existence. Personally, my family, friends, and acquaintances are of Anglo-Saxon descent.

Did you feel this way about the meaning of the Tower of Babel before you became Mormon?

How to joining the LDS Church change your views on race relations, if it all?

You mentioned the pre-existence. Was coming to believe in the pre-existence something that was added to your existing beliefs about race relations, or did it influence and change your beliefs? If so, how?

 

[halleyscomet]

I'd like to see some statistics from geographically dispersed areas of the country before making a judgment.



That's true--for now. But will it remain that way if gay marriage becomes legal nationwide?

Keep in mind gay marriage has been legal in some other countries for a very long time. We have a wealth of statistical information from those other countries about this. In general, it looks like gay marriages do tend to be a bit more resistant to divorce than straight marriages. Although, strangely, among the Dutch, lesbians get divorced more often than gay men...