LDS II: The Mormons

[Foster Zygote]

Why do you suppose the Mayo Clinic identified those specific problems and advised people to take precautions? Answer: Because they are strongly associated with homosexual behavior.

No, they are not. The risk of sexually transmitted diseases is common to both heterosexual and homosexual individuals. Everything they recommend to homosexuals on that page is also good advice for heterosexuals. The only thing discussed on that page as being associated with homosexuals are mental health issues arising from the bigotry and hatred that they face on a regular basis.

Are you seriously going to judge people who want to be married based on the behavior of the sexually promiscuous simply because they have the same gender preference?

 

[Foster Zygote]

I stand by the following statement (and there are others like it) from medical sources.

". . .human physiology makes it clear that the body was not designed to accommodate this activity. The rectum is significantly different from the vagina with regard to suitability for penetration by a penis. The vagina has natural lubricants and is supported by a network of muscles. It is composed of a mucus membrane with a multi-layer stratified squamous epithelium that allows it to endure friction without damage and to resist the immunological actions caused by seamen and sperm. In comparison, the anus is a delicate mechanism of small muscles that comprise an 'exit only' passage. With repeated trauma, friction and stretching, the sphincter loses its tone and its ability to maintain a tight seal. Consequently, anal intercourse leads to leakage of fecal material that can easily become chronic."
http://factsaboutyouth.com/posts/male-homosexual-behavior/

The same source calls the list of diseases "found with extraordinary frequency among male homosexual practitioners. . . alarming." Here is the list:

anal cancer, chlamydia trachomatis, cryptosporidium, giardia lamblia, herpes simplex virus, human papilloma virus, isospora belli, micosporidia, gonorrhea, viral hepatitis types B and C, syphilis.

The threat that living a homosexual lifestyle poses to human health is very real. Study after study after study makes that clear. The threat cannot be wished away by semantic manipulation.

That is, as has already been pointed out in one of my previous posts, a right-wing anti-gay agency, created specifically to oppose equal rights for homosexuals. You might as well cite the Ku Klux Klan for evidence regarding the morality and work ethics of African Americans.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Why do you suppose the Mayo Clinic identified those specific problems and advised people to take precautions? Answer: Because they are strongly associated with homosexual behavior.

And you still haven't answered my question.

Why did you omit the text that clearly indicates that Dr. Chakraborty regards discrimination and abuse by homophobes to be the most likely explanation for the rate of mental health issues among homosexuals? It was right there. You pasted text from immediately before and after that statement.

 

[joobz]

I may have alluded to a study or studies showing that promiscuity occurs at a higher rate among homosexual men than it does among non-homosexual men.

You haven't presented any such study.

 

[pakeha]

...Besides, as one continually seems to have to mention, your argument ignores the approximately half of those affected by gay marriage bans who, though they certainly will never show them to the likes of you, possess vaginas.

By the way, for those who might not be aware of it, the "American College of Pediatricians" cited as the source of Skyrider's above quotation is not the more generally known American Academy of Pediatricians. It is an organization founded in 2002 by social conservatives promoting a religious viewpoint, with the explicit and stated goal of opposing the viewpoint of the American Academy of Pediatricians. The latter organization has made statements accepting homosexuality and suggesting that the quality of parenting is not directly related to orientation. Readers of the ACP site will be treated to information on "gender identity disorder" and suggestions that homosexuality can and should be reversed. They also oppose contraception and abortion, promote spanking, and link directly from their site to The Heritage Foundation, the National Center for Complimentary and Alternative Medicine, and Focus on the Family.

That's not a medical site. It's an anti gay site created by bigoted anti-gay doctors who write sciencey sounding nonsense with the intent of pleasing other anti gay bigots. If you want a real medical site, go to the AMA or mayo or the cdc or NIH or other reputable sites.

This sort of intellectual dishonesty shown by deliberate misusing sources is, IMO, the result of rationalising the need to accept Smith's frauds regarding the BoM and the BoA.
It's why accepting lies 'for the greater good' is so pernicious, in my view.

 

[abaddon]

I haven't argued against gay marriage on the ground that promiscuity is "somehow a gay problem." I simply listed precautions homosexuals should take according to the Mayo Clinic. Independently of the Mayo Clinic post and the issue of gay marriage, I may have alluded to a study or studies showing that promiscuity occurs at a higher rate among homosexual men than it does among non-homosexual men.

You mean the very same precautions straight couples take? How exactly are they different?

 

[Pup]

I stand by the following statement (and there are others like it) from medical sources.

". . .human physiology makes it clear that the body was not designed to accommodate this activity...."
(snip)

The threat that living a homosexual lifestyle poses to human health is very real. Study after study after study makes that clear. The threat cannot be wished away by semantic manipulation.

The threat of living a homosexual lifestyle? I had no idea that a career in fashion design or a fondness for Broadway shows could be so dangerous. Though I am surprised that lesbians would spend so much time inserting penises in each others' anuses; never knew that before. Whose penises do they use?

I've never lived anything but a heterosexual lifestyle, but seriously, even I can figure out that 1) homosexuals come in two genders, both of whom would like to have the chance to marry same as everyone else, 2) they have lots of ways to enjoy sex that don't involve inserting a penis into an anus if they don't want to, and 3) a lifestyle and a specific sex act are two completely different things.

 

[skyrider44]

I have already shown the problem with the statistics in that paper. In particular, the factIf you were not anti-gay, then you would not rely. . . .

The world renowned Mayo Clinic is anti-gay--right?

 

[RandFan]

You would be correct if it weren't for the fact that several studies show promiscuity is a problem among homosexuals.

Which has nothing to do with the legality of gays and lesbians having children. You've utterly failed to come up with a nexus. Your argument is like this.

• Marriage has something to do with children.
• Gays are bad for children.
• Don't let gays get married.

I mean c'mon, the argument is fallacious on its face. It's an ad hoc attempt to justify bigotry.

 

[skyrider44]

No, they are not. The risk of sexually transmitted diseases is common to both heterosexual and homosexual individuals. Everything they recommend to homosexuals on that page is also good advice for heterosexuals.

It's a matter of degree. Homosexuals suffer the listed afflictions to a much greater extent than do heterosexuals. Mountains of data show this to be the case.

The only thing discussed on that page as being associated with homosexuals are mental health issues arising from the bigotry and hatred that they face on a regular basis.

I think there is some truth in what you say. I also think self-guilt is a factor.

Are you seriously going to judge people who want to be married based on the behavior of the sexually promiscuous simply because they have the same gender preference?

No.

 

[skyrider44]

And you still haven't answered my question.

Why did you omit the text that clearly indicates that Dr. Chakraborty regards discrimination and abuse by homophobes to be the most likely explanation for the rate of mental health issues among homosexuals? It was right there. You pasted text from immediately before and after that statement.

Yes, I shoud have included that. However, as I note in a previous post, I think some of the mental problems that afflict homosexuals are the result of self-imposed guilt.

I worked with a doctor whose son, a returned missionary, is gay. The son suffers from extreme feelings of guilt. Commenting on his son's condition, the doctor--who is convinced people are born gay--asked me, "Why in the world would anyone choose to be a homosexual considering the pain they endure?"

 

[skyrider44]

And you still haven't answered my question.

Why did you omit the text that clearly indicates that Dr. Chakraborty regards discrimination and abuse by homophobes to be the most likely explanation for the rate of mental health issues among homosexuals? It was right there. You pasted text from immediately before and after that statement.

It was an honest oversight, and nothing more. If I thought about it at all, I probably reasoned that physical afflictions were easier to identify and diagnose. If I had wanted to hide Dr. Chakraborty's statement, why didn't I remove it from the post?

 

[Foster Zygote]

The world renowned Mayo Clinic is anti-gay--right?

The Mayo Clinic isn't misrepresenting its own work.

 

[RandFan]

Yes, I shoud have included that. However, as I note in a previous post, I think some of the mental problems that afflict homosexuals are the result of self-imposed guilt.

I worked with a doctor whose son, a returned missionary, is gay. The son suffers from extreme feelings of guilt. Commenting on his son's condition, the doctor--who is convinced people are born gay--asked me, "Why in the world would anyone choose to be a homosexual considering the pain they endure?"

It was an honest oversight, and nothing more. If I thought about it at all, I probably reasoned that physical afflictions were easier to identify and diagnose. If I had wanted to hide Dr. Chakraborty's statement, why didn't I remove it from the post?

And what does any of this have to do with anything?

You've identified a group with correlated social health problems.... AND? There is another group, poor people, the children of poor people are far more likely to suffer mental health problems than those not born into poverty, not to mention neglect and abuse. What do we do about that?

You've provided a solution without a problem and then in an ad hoc fashion found a problem for your solution (the solution of course is to keep gays from getting married). You're premise doesn't match your conclusion. It's a non sequitur. It does not follow. It would make far more sense to prevent poor people from marrying. In that case we have a direct correlation and clear cause and affect.

 

[Foster Zygote]

It's a matter of degree. Homosexuals suffer the listed afflictions to a much greater extent than do heterosexuals. Mountains of data show this to be the case.

You've said this before. You were asked for evidence.

Even if it was true, so what? Sexual activity between consenting adults is not illegal. And what does it have to do with allowing people to commit to each other monogamously?

I think there is some truth in what you say. I also think self-guilt is a factor.

Just like countless heterosexuals were psychologically twisted by religious guilt to the point where they felt shame about their own sexuality even after marriage. Just like millions of people grew up thinking that they were depraved freaks because they couldn't overcome the urge to masturbate. I'm sure there are people who were taught to feel shame about their identities. But that fault is our society's, not theirs.

No.

Then what is the point of the "evidence" that you are presenting?

 

[dafydd]

Yes, I shoud have included that. However, as I note in a previous post, I think some of the mental problems that afflict homosexuals are the result of self-imposed guilt.

What? You have some very odd ideas. No evidence of course, just odd ideas. I have some gay friends and aquaintances and your post would give them a good chuckle. You are saying that all gays have mental problems. Divest yourself of this notion. Are some of the mental problems suffered by heterosexuals the result of non self-imposed guilt? What about bisexuals? Do they suffer from self-imposed and non self-imposed guilt on alternate days?

 

[Foster Zygote]

It was an honest oversight, and nothing more. If I thought about it at all, I probably reasoned that physical afflictions were easier to identify and diagnose. If I had wanted to hide Dr. Chakraborty's statement, why didn't I remove it from the post?

You did remove Dr. Chakraborty's statement.

You took two paragraphs that read:

Homosexual people tend to experience more mental health problems than heterosexual people, research indicates. Discrimination may contribute to the higher risk, believes lead researcher Dr. Apu Chakraborty of University College London, UK.

His team looked at rates of mental disorder among 7,403 adults living in the UK, whose details were obtained from the Adult Psychiatric Morbidity Survey 2007. Rates of depression, anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder, phobia, self-harm, suicidal thoughts, and alcohol and drug dependence were significantly higher in homosexual respondents.

And rearranged them thusly:

"Homosexual people tend to experience more mental health problems than heterosexual people, research indicates," according to Dr. Apu Chakraborty, University College, London. "Rates of mental disorder among 7,403 adults living in the UK, whose details were obtained from the Adult Psychiatric Morbidity Survey 2007. . .were significantly higher in homosexual respondents." Those disorders included depression, anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder, phobias, self-harm, suicidal thoughts, and alcohol and drug dependence.

The blue part was quoted verbatim. The red part was omitted. The rest was rearranged by you so that you could work in the doctor's name and references to homosexuals experiencing problems with depression, anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder, phobias, self-harm, suicidal thoughts, and alcohol and drug dependence. But you left out the part that damages your argument.

If it was not your intent to omit the comment, then why didn't you just copy and paste the paragraphs as they were?

 

[skyrider44]

That is, as has already been pointed out in one of my previous posts, a right-wing anti-gay agency, created specifically to oppose equal rights for homosexuals. You might as well cite the Ku Klux Klan for evidence regarding the morality and work ethics of African Americans.

It appears you are unable to denigrate the integrity of the findings proper--findings backed by unbiased medical researchers and practitioners. That would seem to leave you with no recourse but to compare thosel medical professionals to the KKK. I don't find that to be a very compelling--not to mention fair--argument.

 

[Janadele]

Are you really proposing that straight couples do not engage in anal sex...

No one with any sense of decency, morality, or common sense would sink to such depravity. If they do so choose, then they deserve to suffer all the resulting retribution, misery, and diseases and not expect others such as tax payers to pay for research and medical treatments.

 

[Janadele]

What is the official LDS position on people like Warren Jeffs? ...he pretty much WAS the local government... Is the control Jeffs had over the town the kind of control the LDS Church wants over the communities where they have members

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has never restricted non members from settling in Utah. Whereas Hildale /Short Creek / Colorado City on the border of Utah / Arizona is and has always been an exclusive Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (FLDS) community. Non FLDS are not welcome there, except as patrons of the shop on the highway. I have visited a number of times out of curiosity. They are entitled to their privacy, and there is no logical reason why any non member would or should want to intrude upon them.