LDS II: The Mormons

[Pup]

I have no reason to believe the poll is inaccurate. Less than the third of Christians being aware of the issues involved is perfectly consistent with the poor overall religious knowledge demonstrated by most Christians.

Remember, this is a religion that is so ill informed about the teachings of Christ that the prosperity gospel screechers get a foothold.

Then you're retracting your claim that most Christians don't consider Mormons to be Christian?

You don't actually understand WHY most Christians don't consider Mormons to be Christian.

It seems you're claiming for yourself the ability to declare what a true Christian is, while ignoring both what other Christians say as well as how people define themselves.

 

[halleyscomet]

Let's see the documentation--not from rabid anti-LDS sources but from reasonably objective written accounts.

I find it odd that you feel the need to defend a dead man from accusations of having human failings. Even if you believe he was a prophet, chosen by God, that would not require him to be perfect. He was a known con man engaging in the kind of mystical rituals that would have gotten him stoned for sorcery in the Old Testament. He had his own children aborted at times. His conquests of 14 to 16 year old girls, scandalous and monstrous by today's standards, was more "inappropriate" for the time, much like Muhammad's marriage to a nine year old girl, which probably wasn't consummated until she was 13 or so anyway.

One of your own holy books, the Book of Mormon, contains the story of Nephi, a man who was, if you read the text objectively, and abject moron. His Faith in God is literally the ONLY thing he has going for him. The very people who are supposed to be following him mistreat him, lash him to the mast of a ship for a few days and generally ignore him until God pokes his head in and says, "Yo, Listen to Nephi or I'll smack you again." Nephi is such an inept leader that he can't inspire confidence in his people even WITH God working miracles every few passages. You could make a slapstick 80's movie about the life of Nephi and the only real challenge would be trying to figure out how to work beheading a helpless drunk man into a comedy where Nephi is the hero.

The idea of God choosing prophets no sensible human would consider prophet material is a fundamental aspect of your mythology, and yet here you are, wasting your breath, trying to defend Smith from the well documented facts of his libido.

 

[halleyscomet]

"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true."
Dallin H. Oaks, 2007



Jesus was VERY critical of the religious leaders of the day. Anyone who tells you questioning the leaders is a sin is himself unworthy of a leadership position.

 

[halleyscomet]

Then you're retracting your claim that most Christians don't consider Mormons to be Christian?

Yes. I concede that "many" is a more appropriate modifier than "most."

This thread has had a lot of examples of Mormons playing at being victims of something. I think it's relevant to post some information on an example where a Mormon really WAS the victim of something truly vile. If the genders were flipped, the rapist in this incident would have been the target of an International manhunt, but it ends up treated with mirth and amusement by most.

Joyce McKinney and the Manacled Mormon

Mormon sex in chains case

 

[Janadele]

The March 2014 edition of the Ensign... already on line:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2014/03/the- ... y?lang=eng

Reinforces the unchanging position of the LDS Church on standards of morality:
"There is no field so dark or corner so secluded that no one will ever know. God will know, and you will know if you violate His moral law... the sin is in entertaining the thought once it comes. The scriptures tell us, “For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he” (Proverbs 23:7). In essence, our thoughts become the seeds of our actions. We do have the power within us to take control of our lives and our thoughts."

 

[halleyscomet]

LDS Church defies their own scripture in attempt to reduce the ridicule they face from non-Mormons.

First, some context:

"Then will they become Gods...they will never cease to increase and to multiply, worlds without end. When they receive their crowns, their dominions, they then will be prepared to frame earths like unto ours and to people them in the same manner as we have been brought forth by our parents, by our Father and God" Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 17:143

Pretty straightforward. This web site lists more verses. I know it's an "Anti-Mormon" site, but it's being linked to to provide a list of relevant Mormon scripture, nothing more:

http://exmormon.org/d6/drupal/Mormons-get-their-own-worlds

It turns out the LDS has published a shoddy, lazy essay to deny the scriptures above because they're tired of being made fun of for the whole "You get a planet" thing.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_REL_MORMONS_AFTERLIFE_PLANETS

The LDS church is willing to completely rewrite their doctrine on the afterlife to avoid ridicule that wasn't hurting their numbers anyway. Yet there are still people who insist gays will never be accepted. What's more "Eternal" in "Eternal Law" than the afterlife itself?

 

[Janadele]

February 25, 2014.
Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,
speaking at BYU-Idaho’s weekly devotional before 15,000 students and faculty :

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormon-elder-oaks-byu-idaho-free-exercise-faith

"encouraged believers to pray and “ask God to help us and our neighbors and leaders recognize God our Creator and the right and wrong established by His commandments. We should do this for the good of His children everywhere.” Elder Oaks also encouraged those present to assert themselves “against the current trend to refrain from religious references even in private communications” because believers “have a duty to preserve the name and influence of God and Christ in our conversations, our lives and our culture.”

People of faith should also support public recognition of God’s blessings, Elder Oaks said. Believers in America can do this by “acknowledging the blessings of the Lord in the establishment of” the United States and speaking “truthfully of the fact that this nation was founded by persons and leaders who were predominantly Christians and who embodied the principles of their faith in the constitution, laws and culture of this nation.” And concerning the free exercise of religion, Elder Oaks said believers can best contend for this freedom by supporting public prayer and correctly defining “free exercise” (a phrase in the First Amendment of the United States Constitution)."

 

[skyrider44]

I find it odd that you feel the need to defend a dead man from accusations of having human failings.

But it's not odd for you to persecute a dead man--who cannot defend himself--for having had human failings?

Even if you believe he was a prophet, chosen by God, that would not require him to be perfect.

He said he wasn't perfect.

He was a known con man engaging in the kind of mystical rituals that would have gotten him stoned for sorcery in the Old Testament. He had his own children aborted at times. His conquests of 14 to 16 year old girls, scandalous and monstrous by today's standards, was more "inappropriate" for the time, much like Muhammad's marriage to a nine year old girl, which probably wasn't consummated until she was 13 or so anyway.

Those charges, which are dear to the hearts of anti-Mormons, require substantiation. So what are you sources?

One of your own holy books, the Book of Mormon, contains the story of Nephi, a man who was, if you read the text objectively, and abject moron. His Faith in God is literally the ONLY thing he has going for him. The very people who are supposed to be following him mistreat him, lash him to the mast of a ship for a few days and generally ignore him until God pokes his head in and says, "Yo, Listen to Nephi or I'll smack you again." Nephi is such an inept leader that he can't inspire confidence in his people even WITH God working miracles every few passages. You could make a slapstick 80's movie about the life of Nephi and the only real challenge would be trying to figure out how to work beheading a helpless drunk man into a comedy where Nephi is the hero.

Your characterization of Nephi bears little resemblance to the truth. It took inordinate courage for him to accomplish what he did, especially because he was not the firstborn male.

The idea of God choosing prophets no sensible human would consider prophet material is a fundamental aspect of your mythology, and yet here you are, wasting your breath, trying to defend Smith from the well documented facts of his libido.

And yet Jesus Christ chose Judas as one of his disciples. BTW, above you state
"Even if you believe he was a prophet, chosen by God, that would not require him to be perfect." You appear to contradict yourself.

 

[skyrider44]

Why do you avoid discussing the actual data instead of interpretations of the data?

Of what value are "actual data" if they are not interpreted?

 

[skyrider44]

. . . BTW, did you notice that immediately after my post, Skyrider used the Huffington Post as his source?

The HP article of which I'm aware reported on a study published by the Public Library of Science. Hence, the HP was not the source.

 

[Cat Tale]

The HP article of which I'm aware reported on a study published by the Public Library of Science. Hence, the HP was not the source.

The HP wasn't my source either, except for one little paragraph that just summed up what I was going to point out. The actual links were from official LDS sources, (and all came about after the prop 8 fiasco), i.e. lds.org, mormonsandgays.org... Janadele apparently thought I got all my info from the HP and didn't bother to go to any of my links. The funny thing is she called my post ludicrous and blasphemous, when the links were all to official LDS sites, and not the HP.

 

[jsfisher]

February 25, 2014.
Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,
speaking at BYU-Idaho’s weekly devotional before 15,000 students and faculty :

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormon-elder-oaks-byu-idaho-free-exercise-faith

"encouraged believers to pray and “ask God to help us and our neighbors and leaders recognize God our Creator and the right and wrong established by His commandments. We should do this for the good of His children everywhere.” Elder Oaks also encouraged those present to assert themselves “against the current trend to refrain from religious references even in private communications” because believers “have a duty to preserve the name and influence of God and Christ in our conversations, our lives and our culture.”

People of faith should also support public recognition of God’s blessings, Elder Oaks said. Believers in America can do this by “acknowledging the blessings of the Lord in the establishment of” the United States and speaking “truthfully of the fact that this nation was founded by persons and leaders who were predominantly Christians and who embodied the principles of their faith in the constitution, laws and culture of this nation.” And concerning the free exercise of religion, Elder Oaks said believers can best contend for this freedom by supporting public prayer and correctly defining “free exercise” (a phrase in the First Amendment of the United States Constitution)."

Nothing to add of your own, just blind copy/pasta? Janadele, if your faith is so meaningful to you, how come you are at a complete loss to express in your own words what any of it means?

 

[Slowvehicle]

The HP article of which I'm aware reported on a study published by the Public Library of Science. Hence, the HP was not the source.

I notice that you have not yet addressed this:

Once again, I encourage you to cite chapter and verse from "Christ's moral ministry" (in its "New Testament purity") (which would mean, for instance, quoting words and teachings directly attributed to Christ, not someone else who diluted the meaning of "Christian identity" by claiming to speak with Christ's authority, in the process adding to and changing "Christ's moral message") where Christ himself is said to have said anything about homosexuality. Or about marriage existing after the "resurrection". Or about people becoming 'gods'.

I look forward to learning the undiluted, unadulterated version of "Christ's message" in its "New Testament purity" that was attributed to Jesus, said to be said to be "the Christ", himself and himself alone, in the canonic materials.

 

[Craig4]

February 25, 2014.
Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,
speaking at BYU-Idaho’s weekly devotional before 15,000 students and faculty :

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormon-elder-oaks-byu-idaho-free-exercise-faith

"encouraged believers to pray and “ask God to help us and our neighbors and leaders recognize God our Creator and the right and wrong established by His commandments. We should do this for the good of His children everywhere.” Elder Oaks also encouraged those present to assert themselves “against the current trend to refrain from religious references even in private communications” because believers “have a duty to preserve the name and influence of God and Christ in our conversations, our lives and our culture.”

People of faith should also support public recognition of God’s blessings, Elder Oaks said. Believers in America can do this by “acknowledging the blessings of the Lord in the establishment of” the United States and speaking “truthfully of the fact that this nation was founded by persons and leaders who were predominantly Christians and who embodied the principles of their faith in the constitution, laws and culture of this nation.” And concerning the free exercise of religion, Elder Oaks said believers can best contend for this freedom by supporting public prayer and correctly defining “free exercise” (a phrase in the First Amendment of the United States Constitution)."

Your leader is wrong; many if not most of the Founding Fathers would be surprised to learn they they were Christians. Moreover it's hard to argue that there was an intent to run the new country as a Christian nation when one of the first things the Framers did was make it against the law to run the US as a Christian Nation (see Establishment Clause).

He is wrong on a lot of other stuff to but since you only pointed out this error, I won't detain you with the rest of the list.

 

[bruto]

February 25, 2014.
Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,
speaking at BYU-Idaho’s weekly devotional before 15,000 students and faculty :

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormon-elder-oaks-byu-idaho-free-exercise-faith

"encouraged believers to pray and “ask God to help us and our neighbors and leaders recognize God our Creator and the right and wrong established by His commandments. We should do this for the good of His children everywhere.” Elder Oaks also encouraged those present to assert themselves “against the current trend to refrain from religious references even in private communications” because believers “have a duty to preserve the name and influence of God and Christ in our conversations, our lives and our culture.”

People of faith should also support public recognition of God’s blessings, Elder Oaks said. Believers in America can do this by “acknowledging the blessings of the Lord in the establishment of” the United States and speaking “truthfully of the fact that this nation was founded by persons and leaders who were predominantly Christians and who embodied the principles of their faith in the constitution, laws and culture of this nation.” And concerning the free exercise of religion, Elder Oaks said believers can best contend for this freedom by supporting public prayer and correctly defining “free exercise” (a phrase in the First Amendment of the United States Constitution)."

Whether or not the founding fathers had or did not have faith is essentially irrelevant. They were very careful to establish a secular government. The intrusion of words and ideas based on the prevailing faith of the time does not diminish the actual and clear intent of the Constitution to keep government and religious establishment entirely separate. Most, if not all, of the founding fathers were, of course, members of a predominantly Christian culture, and also of different, often warring Christian faiths. It is to their credit that the inevitable cultural artifacts of their surrounding culture did not make them fools, and the secular government they established demonstrates that. Noting that the Constitution, written as it was by people of its time, is steeped with religious language, does not change this. If anything, realization that the basic principles established are in conflict with the cultural norm is a testament to the founders' vision.

The above quotation about private communications also shows the utterly ridiculous blurring of boundaries, and it's hard to see this statement as anything but gratuitiously stirring up hatred and fear. NOBODY anywhere is trying to establish the 'current trend' of refraining from religious reference in private communication, and any sane observer of popular culture would consider such a statement utterly crazy. If there's a trend, that's all it is. If you don't like it don't do it. Sticking that in is a guarantee that a thoughtful reader will look at the entire statement and say: "Here is either a wanton demagogue or a very stupid person, if not both."

 

[pakeha]

...People of faith should also support public recognition of God’s blessings, Elder Oaks said. Believers in America can do this by “acknowledging the blessings of the Lord in the establishment of” the United States and speaking “truthfully of the fact that this nation was founded by persons and leaders who were predominantly Christians and who embodied the principles of their faith in the constitution, laws and culture of this nation.” And concerning the free exercise of religion, Elder Oaks said believers can best contend for this freedom by supporting public prayer and correctly defining “free exercise” (a phrase in the First Amendment of the United States Constitution)."

Believers in America?
Janadele, why do you focus on America so much?
Is this an LDS doctrine?

 

[skyrider44]

I notice that you have not yet addressed this:

You, yourself, have harshly criticized the Bible, noting that it has gone through many translations and other changes. How, then, do you know that Christ didn't speak of marriage existing after the resurrection, or of people becoming gods, or of homosexuality? The fact is, you don't know that He was silent on those subjects. The LDS Church's eighth Article of Faith states: "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly."

 

[Craig4]

Whenever I see anyone holding up the Founding Fathers as paragons of virtue I like point out that in addition to saying "give me liberty or give me death," they also said things like, "hey slave girl, get over here and make your master happy," or "I know I said I'd give you your freedom baby but it's complicated."

 

[halleyscomet]

How, then, do you know that Christ didn't speak of marriage existing after the resurrection

Jesus makes it pretty clear that there's no marriage after the resurrection in Luke 20:27-40

or of people becoming gods,

Correct, that mythology comes from Smith's Bible themed fan fiction.

or of homosexuality

Correct. There's no record of Jesus having spoken about homosexuality.

The fact is, you don't know that He was silent on those subjects.

True, but because he was silent we also cannot know what he thought about them, just that whatever he thought he didn't deem important enough to ensure the Gospel writers recorded it.

The LDS Church's eighth Article of Faith states: "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly."

Thank you for conceding the point, even if you are laughably wrong about marriage after death and resurrection.

 

[gabeygoat]

The LDS Church's eighth Article of Faith states: "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly."

Well, how convenient