LDS II: The Mormons

You assume, then, that someone (or a group of someones) arbitrarily decided "proper" gender roles. That's false. The gender roles assigned to men and women are biologically driven. It's a fact, for example, that infants who are nursed receive important disease immunities from their mothers; obviously, that protection to infants isn't available from a father "mother." Consequently, women have the role not only of child bearing, but of child nurturing.

As far as men wearing pants and women wearing dresses, are you unaware of numerous situations in which women wear pants--on a ranch, in a factory, in certain sporting events, on construction projects, etc.?

BTW: Your claim that gender roles are linked to male dominance is correct in an overarching sense. Why? Men are physically stronger than women. It isn't any more complicated than that.

I had vowed to withdraw from this silliness, but as with a car wreck I can't seem to ignore it.

The nursing argument above does a really poor job of arguing against adoption by anybody, considering that even if an adopted child is of nursing age it's unlikely any of the new parents will take up the task. You yourself have used, as an argument against gay marriage, the observation that a pair of men cannot reproduce without a third party, so it's pretty clear that if a pair of men get a baby it will probably be adopted, and if through a surrogate, with the possibility of nursing remaining. And, of course, as usual, you seem to have forgotten approximately fifty percent of the people to whom same sex marriage is an issue but nursing ability not. I hope it does not take a biology degree to notice that in a lesbian couple there are enough breasts to go around.
 
You assume, then, that someone (or a group of someones) arbitrarily decided "proper" gender roles. That's false. The gender roles assigned to men and women are biologically driven. It's a fact, for example, that infants who are nursed receive important disease immunities from their mothers; obviously, that protection to infants isn't available from a father "mother." Consequently, women have the role not only of child bearing, but of child nurturing.

As far as men wearing pants and women wearing dresses, are you unaware of numerous situations in which women wear pants--on a ranch, in a factory, in certain sporting events, on construction projects, etc.?

BTW: Your claim that gender roles are linked to male dominance is correct in an overarching sense. Why? Men are physically stronger than women. It isn't any more complicated than that.

Holy misogynism, Batman. While I was aware that Mormonism was based on a 19th century fraud, I was unaware that it was steeped in medieval gender roles.
 
As far as men wearing pants and women wearing dresses, are you unaware of numerous situations in which women wear pants--on a ranch, in a factory, in certain sporting events, on construction projects, etc.?

when you say things that historically and culturally misinformed, I seriously doubt you;re really a Mormon, LDS or otherwise. Were you not aware that wearing pants is a big deal WITHIN YOUR OWN CLAIMED RELIGION? It's such a big deal it hits the news when someone challenges it.

Wear Pants to Church Day
Wear Pants to Church Dec. 16, 2012 was the launch of an effort to normalize the action many LDS women have taken to wear formal, respectful dress pants to LDS church services. This page will remain active as a place for education, outreach and support.

Mormon Women Set Out to Take a Stand, in Pants
A call for Mormon women to wear pants to church, begun this month by a small group of women, has stretched across the globe, but not before creating a backlash and even generating death threats.

That's right. Death threats, over women wearing dress pants in church.

Mormon Women Wear Pants To Church, Get Threatened
 
That's quite a charge. Do you have a source?

http://www.salon.com/2013/11/30/what_do_mormons_really_believe_about_same_sex_marriage_partner/

Where LDS people have mobilized against LGBT civil marriage rights, it’s often because they have been taught that their own religious freedom, theology and marriage practices will come under threat—a threat that while disclaimed by most legal experts can feel especially real given LDS historical memory of popular and US governmental anti-polygamy crusades in the late nineteenth century.

Which charge are you asking about?

1. Mormons are opposing gay marriage because they fear their religious freedom will be threatened.

2. Legalized gay marriage won't force Mormon churches to recognize or perform gay marriages.

If the first argument were false, then why is it that way back in 2011,

When civil unions are included, a solid 60% majority of Utah voters come out in favor of some form of recognition. 23% favor marriage, 37% civil unions, and 39% oppose all recognition. With this level of support in Utah, it’s likely that there isn’t single state in the nation stands in opposition to all recognition of same-sex couples.

Are you honestly going to argue that Mormons are not afraid of being "forced" to perform gay marriages in their Temple if gay marriage is legalized?

The second argument is a slam dunk. The history of legalized interracial marriage for example makes it very clear that even today churches are free to refuse to marry or grant membership to interracial couples.

The Jehovah Witnesses don't even recognize a divorce for a reason other than adultery. A JW woman who divorces an abusive, but sexually faithful, husband cannot remarry within the JW church. She'll be disfellowed if she tries.

It's clear that anyone claiming that LDS churches will be forced to perform gay marriages is either lying or ignorant.
 
The gender roles assigned to men and women are biologically driven. It's a fact, for example, that infants who are nursed receive important disease immunities from their mothers; obviously, that protection to infants isn't available from a father "mother."

I think you're using the term 'gender' to mean 'sex' which are two different things.

World Health Organization said:
"Sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.

"Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.


also, there's themplicit insult to female mothers who've had double mastectomies in what you're saying.
 
. . . I haven't cited any reports.

On what basis, then, are you able to do a comparative analysis? You have none. All you "know" is that studies/reports produced by conservative/religious organizations are riddled with errors, and studies/reports produced by non-conservative/non-religious organizations--studies/reports you have by your own admission never cited--are error-free.

Does that make sense to you?

I know they're bigots because they distort the truth to support their opposition to homosexuals.

How do you know what the truth is if you identify it solely on a monolithic basis?
 
. . . 1.) Your implication is that women who can't breast feed or choose not to are inferior mothers.

Incorrect. Those women, unfortunately, are unable or unwilling to fulfill their biological roles. The same point applies to men who are impotent.

Nurturing requires a lot more than simply sucking a boob.

Obviously.

Having a nurturing set of parents (parents attentive to the needs of the child and a willingness to meet those needs) is infinitely more beneficial than pawning off such responsibility onto one party.

Breastfeeding creates a bond between mother and infant that is not achievable in any other way.

If you wanted to make a claim for biological roles in a family, why not this one? As women have functioning set of mammaries and men don't, they clearly are more functional leaders of the family.

I think you know you can't use that as the sole criterion for family leadership.
There's also the matter of male production of something called sperm. Women don't happen to be parthenogenetic.

You seem to be ignorant of historical context. Women wearing pants was for a long time a negative sign. In fact, we still have the expression "to wear the pants in the family" as an outdated statement of who is in charge.

Not quite correct. Before the women's lib movement, most women were homemakers; i.e., they didn't work outside the home. Men were the breadwinners, and the jobs they did to win "bread" typically required that they wear pants--coal miners, lumberjacks, longshoremen, fire fighters, construction workers, soldiers, roofers, carpenters, mechanics, etc. Thus the expression "He wears the pants in the family" was not necessarily, as you suppose, a pejorative directed at women.

Yet, to consider the idea of women wearing pants as confusing gender roles" is laughable.

If I said that, it was in the context of a series of accoutrements that tend to differentiate males from females.

So, one day, will your claims about gay marriages.

That's possible, which will make it entirely consistent with the teachings of my faith (and other faiths as well) that in the last days black will be white and white will be black.

Might makes right is your moral argument for gender roles?

Please refrain from twisting the meaning of my words.

Yikes. You have really dug yourself deep into a hole here.
My general rule of thumb is if you have to make increasingly stupid arguments to support your original position, your original position must be a bad one.

General rules of thumb--as you demonstrate--tend to lead to sweeping generalizations, which are of little value.
 
Breastfeeding creates a bond between mother and infant that is not achievable in any other way.


Everything creates a bond between a parent and a child that is not achievable in any other way. Yesterday, I played Skylanders with my son. There is nothing that will ever duplicate whatever neural impression that made on him, not even playing Skylanders with me again today.
 
Incorrect. Those women, unfortunately, are unable or unwilling to fulfill their biological roles.
So women who don't breast feed are unfortunate? Should we still consider them citizens? Should they be allowed to marry?





Breastfeeding creates a bond between mother and infant that is not achievable in any other way.
So women who don't breastfeed will never be bonded to their children to the same extent as women who don't?

Keep digging, there. You are really not helping your case.


I think you know you can't use that as the sole criterion for family leadership.
WHy not? it is as rational as your breastfeeding argument to place women's role to be the nurturer of the family. If you think it is a stupid argument, what does it say about your own?


Not quite correct. Before the women's lib movement, most women were homemakers; i.e., they didn't work outside the home. Men were the breadwinners, and the jobs they did to win "bread" typically required that they wear pants--coal miners, lumberjacks, longshoremen, fire fighters, construction workers, soldiers, roofers, carpenters, mechanics, etc. Thus the expression "He wears the pants in the family" was not necessarily, as you suppose, a pejorative directed at women.
Yes. A woman who wore pants was considered a woman who didn't know her place. I have no clue how you can't think of this as anything BUT perjorative.


If I said that, it was in the context of a series of accoutrements that tend to differentiate males from females.
NO you didn't say that. WHat you SAID was that there would be gender role confusion issues in children of gay parents. I claim that this is only true if one believes there would be gender role confusion in children from moms who wear pants.


That's possible, which will make it entirely consistent with the teachings of my faith (and other faiths as well) that in the last days black will be white and white will be black.
This is bigotry in it's purest form.
Truth comes out eventually. And now you demonstrate exactly why your entire attempt to use science to argue against gay marriage crashed and burned. You weren't interested in finding the truth. Only in supporting your bigoted world view.


Please refrain from twisting the meaning of my words.
I didn't twist your words. It is EXACTLY what your argument was.
If you don't like it, don't blame me. Blame your moral compass.



General rules of thumb--as you demonstrate--tend to lead to sweeping generalizations, which are of little value.
I'll leave it for you to figure out how this statement effectively invalidates your religion, or really, religion in general.
 
Are you unaware of milk donor mothers? Do you know of any milk donor fathers?

Of course not.

Your premises are wrong; consequently, your questions do not merit a serious answer.

Is that supposed to be a serious question?

Apparently, that's what you believe inasmuch as you composed the statement.

You made the unsupported claim that "gender roles" are "biologically driven".

As per usual, you choose to deny the implications of your unsupported claim.
 
On what basis, then, are you able to do a comparative analysis?
I haven't done a comparative analysis. I've simply noted that the sources you cite distort the truth in order to support their arguments. (And that you have cited numerous sources without even bothering to read them thoroughly enough to know that they don't support your position.)

How do you know what the truth is if you identify it solely on a monolithic basis?
I'll tell you what I do know: The sources you cite in support of your argument have repeatedly been shown to distort and misrepresent the truth in order to support their position that same-sex marriage is harmful. I also know that you have engaged in double standards in order to do the same.
 
Incorrect. Those women, unfortunately, are unable or unwilling to fulfill their biological roles. The same point applies to men who are impotent.
I had to chuckle when I read that. I think biologically humans want to be as promiscuous as possible whilst religions (and sometimes cultural mores) prevent them from fulfilling those biological roles.

Breastfeeding creates a bond between mother and infant that is not achievable in any other way.
This is not true. I am in the process of having a child (well, my wife is and I have the role of father-to-be-that-is-reading-everything-out-there-including-how-it-all-works-biologically) and this is a myth.
What is needed is skin-to-skin contact for the smell (feromones), warmth and bacterial cultures to be shared.
(http://www.uu.nl/faculty/medicine/NL/Actueel/Pages/Hetsocialelevenvanbaby's.aspx is the book I am reading on that)
The breastfeeding itself plays no role at all. Mind you I am not talking about mothers milk since that can be administered in other ways.
Also, I understood from the Chef de Clinique of that this bonding can be achieved by any person that is in this manner in contact with the child.
This was in response to my question why, after a ceasarian, the father does not get to hold the child for a prolonged time until the mother recovers from the anaesthetic.
 
when you say things that historically and culturally misinformed, I seriously doubt you;re really a Mormon, LDS or otherwise. Were you not aware that wearing pants is a big deal WITHIN YOUR OWN ... RELIGION? It's such a big deal it hits the news when someone challenges it.

Seriously? I never heard of it till it was brought up on this thread (well, the LDS thread). I was shocked to see that anyone would consider wearing pants to Church a big deal, as it's been done over the last 25+ years. It's pretty much typical, everyday, commonplace in the eastern US. Not that everyone does it, but those who want to do, and no one thinks twice or says anything. The first time I heard anything about 'wearing pants to church day' was on the LDS thread here on this forum. The article admits that there's no Church policy forbidding women from wearing pants to Church.

In 1971 the Church made a statement regarding Dress Standards, in which they said:
Programs and Policies Newsletter July 1971 Ensign said:
Dress Standards. A recent statement from the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve on women's and girls' dress has been issued: 'The Church has not attempted to indicate just how long women's or girls' dresses should be nor whether they should wear pant suits or other types of clothing. We have always counseled our members to be modest in their dress, maintaining... standards... [that] would not be embarrassing to themselves and to their relatives, friends, and associates. We have advised our people that when going to the temple they should not wear slacks or mini-skirts, nor otherwise dress immodestly. We have not, however, felt it wise or necessary to give instructions on this subject relative to attendance at our church meetings, although we do feel that on such occasions they should have in mind that they are in the house of the Lord and should conduct themselves accordingly.'

In 1978 the Relief Society General Presidency announced a new nursery program in which Sister Janath R. Cannon said,
June 1978 Ensign said:
The ratio of nursery leaders to children should be about one-to-eight--and, incidentally, we're suggesting that these women wear pantsuits so that they can participate more comfortably with the children!
The above quote from: Accept Fully This Gift from the Lord": A Conversation with the Relief Society General Presidency. July 1971 Ensign.

By the time I joined the church, a few years later, it was not uncommon (in my college ward) to see ladies in nice pantsuits and/or nice slacks in sacrament meeting, and now in my ward one or two members wear jeans, I assume it's the best they have; others wear work clothes (slacks and work shirt), as they have to leave early to get to work on time. I just don't get what the "big deal" is. There's never been a dress code (well, at least not in the last 40 some years) that forbade women from wearing pants to church, and women have been doing it for years!

The article says that it's "peer pressure," so that's the fault of individual members, it is not the Church requiring them to wear dresses. It is my ward's policy, and that of all the wards I've been in and/or visited, that it's far better to have a person in attendance than to turn them away, or make them feel uncomfortable, simply for the clothes they're wearing.
 
This is a sensitively written perspective on same sex marriage by a Mormon woman who fought Prop 8.

An Open Letter to Prop 8 Supporters

I remember this feeling you may be feeling today, now that Prop 8 appeals have been exhausted and same-sex marriages are about to resume in California. I remember this feeling that your vote doesn’t count.
....
You told us you wanted to protect families. And we showed you that we have families that need protecting as well. We came out, again, as mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, daughters, sons, aunts, uncles, cousins. We came out in our myriad of shapes and sizes and said, “All families matter.” Thank you for reminding us about the importance of our families and encouraging us to fight for them.
....
You told us you wanted to protect children and give them a stable place to grow up. And we showed you our children and the stability they needed. Many of our children came to us from you, from parents who were unable or unwilling to care for them. Others of our children came to us from the streets where they’d sought shelter after coming out to parents who rejected them. Still others were born after much love and effort, none created as accidents, all of whom benefited from growing within the shelter of loving arms and watchful eyes, despite laws preventing full adoption for some of our parents. Thank you for inspiring us to be better parents and guardians, making the world a better place for the next generation.
....
You gave us the reason and the impetus to share our stories with the world. To replace caricatures and generalizations with the reality of faces and names. In the five years since Prop 8 was put onto the ballot in California, millions of stories have been shared and it’s much harder for Americans to say they don’t know any gays or lesbians.
....
Marriage is not easy. It is even harder when community support is not part of the equation. And yet, “For all its failings in particular cases, and for all the stress it has borne lately, marriage is the great civilizing institution. No other institution has the power to turn narcissism into partnership, lust into devotion, strangers into kin.
 
. . . Were you not aware that wearing pants is a big deal WITHIN YOUR OWN CLAIMED RELIGION? It's such a big deal it hits the news when someone challenges it.

The "big deal" of which you speak involves wearing pants to church.
The links you provide make that clear. Perhaps you were not aware that the Church has a dress code.

Wear Pants to Church Day


Mormon Women Set Out to Take a Stand, in Pants


That's right. Death threats, over women wearing dress pants in church.

Mormon Women Wear Pants To Church, Get Threatened
 
I had vowed to withdraw from this silliness, but as with a car wreck I can't seem to ignore it.

The nursing argument above does a really poor job of arguing against adoption by anybody, considering that even if an adopted child is of nursing age it's unlikely any of the new parents will take up the task.

Perhaps, perhaps not.

You yourself have used, as an argument against gay marriage, the observation that a pair of men cannot reproduce without a third party, so it's pretty clear that if a pair of men get a baby it will probably be adopted, and if through a surrogate, with the possibility of nursing remaining.

Sounds reasonable.

And, of course, as usual, you seem to have forgotten approximately fifty percent of the people to whom same sex marriage is an issue but nursing ability not.

Inasmuch (quoting you, above) ". . . it's unlikely any of the new parents will take up the task," what is your point?

I hope it does not take a biology degree to notice that in a lesbian couple there are enough breasts to go around.

Indeed there are.
 
Breastfeeding creates a bond between mother and infant that is not achievable in any other way.
Codswallop. And insulting to those women who for whatever reason have been unable or who choose not to breastfeed. For the sake of full disclosure, I breastfed all my four children for up to 2.5 years each; but I do not denigrate either the experience or the bonding ability of those mothers who did not breastfeed (perhaps, for example, because their milk dried up following a traumatic birth)

Not quite correct. Before the women's lib movement, most women were homemakers; i.e., they didn't work outside the home. Men were the breadwinners, and the jobs they did to win "bread" typically required that they wear pants--coal miners, lumberjacks, longshoremen, fire fighters, construction workers, soldiers, roofers, carpenters, mechanics, etc. Thus the expression "He wears the pants in the family" was not necessarily, as you suppose, a pejorative directed at women.
History fail, I'm sorry to say. For the majority of recorded history, only rich women (i.e. in the main, those supported by rich men) could afford to be homemakers. Most working class and single middle class women worked outside the home long before the equality movement gave more women the freedom to choose. Women were (and are) farmers, midwives, domestic servants, factory workers, authors, seamstresses, weavers, miners, wet-nurses, cleaners - so much more than just governesses and companions. But most written history concentrates on the lives of the rich, and it's necessary to do a bit of reading to really understand the everyday lives of the majority of ordinary people.

"Women's lib", as you call it, is a recent phenomenon, but working women have always been part of society both in the developed and the developing worlds. The movement towards legalising same sex marriage is doing for homosexual couples what the feminist movement did for women; to allow them to formalise what was already happening. Most families can point to an uncle, aunt or cousin who 'lived with their friend' all their lives; now those people can publicise their love and commitment the same way that opposite sex couples can.

General rules of thumb--as you demonstrate--tend to lead to sweeping generalizations, which are of little value.
Indeed. Generalisations about the way people behave such as linking promiscuity to sexuality, or sexual practices to sexuality, or gender roles in the 20th/21st century to the previous centuries, may be less than helpful.

Some homosexuals are promiscuous, some are not.
Some heterosexuals are promiscuous, some are not.
Some homosexual men practice anal sex with their partners, some do not.
Some heterosexual men practice anal sex with their partners, some do not.
Some homosexual couples have (or want) children, some do not.
Some heterosexual couples have (or want) children, some do not.
Some homosexual couples want to marry, some do not.
Some heterosexual couples want to marry, some do not.

No church or religious organisation is going to be forced to conduct marriages of same sex couples. Nobody needs to feel threatened by the extension of marriage to same-sex couples.

That some people find it threatening or difficult to accept that love and commitment cross gender and sexuality boundaries is not a good reason to prevent couples from marrying, any more than the laws in the US forbidding mixed race marriages were based on good reasons. All the reasons that have been made against same sex marriage in this thread reflect the reasons that used to be made against mixed race marriage - that the children would be confused about their racial identity (gender roles), or that black/white/yellow/purple people are inherently promiscuous so the marriages would end, or that it's 'against nature'. The so-called reasons are just as spurious, and just as outdated.
 
. . . Would you use negative health consequences as a measure?

Re. "negative health consequences," you might reflect on the following:

"Lesbians are two times more likely to attempt suicide than straight women.

"Attempts by gay and lesbian youth account for up to 30% of all completed suicides.

"Gay teens are three times more likely to attempt suicide than their heterosexual peers.

"Gay youth are four times more likely to make a suicide attempt requiring medical attention.

"Gay men are six times more likely to attempt suicide than their heterosexual peers."

Source: Fierce Goodbye: Living in the Shadow of Suicide by Gwendolyn Carr (co-author). The book is part of the Trevor Project, whose mission statement says it is "the leading national organization providing crisis intervention and suicide prevention services to lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and questioning young people ages 13-24."
http://www.fiercegoodbye.com/?S=2

Because this thread is being moderated, I am unable to determine if the link works. If it doesn't, enter the title of the book into your search engine.
 
One important thing to keep in mind about the incident with the Fundamentalist Bakery and the Gay Couple, is that ultimately, the court decision is forcing the homophobic bakers to act MORE Christian.

Anyone who refuses to associate with "the other" is ultimately acting like the Pharisees Jesus criticized, not Jesus himself.The bakers took an opportunity to demonstrate the love of Christ and chose instead to judge "The Other" the way the Pharisees judged the tax collectors and prostitutes Jesus associated with. Every Christian is called upon to be a living witness for Christ, but the bakers showed only hate and evil. They failed their duty as Christians. Their "faith" is not a light to guide them, but a bludgeon with which they attack others.

In this regard, the LDS church as similarly failed Christ. Instead of being a beacon of light, they have become Pharisees, hypocritical fools using their "faith" to puff themselves up at the expense of others.
 

What's your take on this news?

Mormon church explains past ban on black priests

The nearly 2,000-word statement posted on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' website was the church's most comprehensive explanation of why it previously had barred men of African descent from the lay clergy.
...
"The Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else," the statement read. "Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form."

It looks like the LDS church has declared your stated attitudes about race-mixing to be in conflict with church doctrine. The LDS church is just fine with it.

Does this impact your interpretation of the Tower of Babel story?

Do you believe that race is dictated in any way by actions in a pre-mortal existence?
 

Back
Top Bottom