Larry Nassar gets 175 years.....

[Bob001]

Subject for discussion: Within the bounds of lawful practice, how should Nassar be treated in prison? Inmates in "supermax" facilities are kept in solitary confinement 23 hours a day, with brief exercise periods in outdoor pens. Harsh, but legal. Nassar probably did more harm to more people than the average supermax guest. I'd hate to see him working in the cafeteria or stocking infirmary shelves at some "Club Fed."
https://www.cnn.com/2015/06/25/us/dzhokhar-tsarnaev-supermax-prison/

 

[Checkmite]

I think mistreatment of pedophiles sometimes happens in prison, but I think the incidence and severity is Hollywoodized and vastly overblown. Fact is, child predators finish their sentences and leave prison still living all the time without missing teeth, scars, or disfiguring injuries.

 

[smartcooky]

Subject for discussion: Within the bounds of lawful practice, how should Nassar be treated in prison? Inmates in "supermax" facilities are kept in solitary confinement 23 hours a day, with brief exercise periods in outdoor pens. Harsh, but legal. Nassar probably did more harm to more people than the average supermax guest. I'd hate to see him working in the cafeteria or stocking infirmary shelves at some "Club Fed."
https://www.cnn.com/2015/06/25/us/dzhokhar-tsarnaev-supermax-prison/

Some people here have already re-characterised to their own (incorrect) interpretations of my opinion, so there is no point me going over old ground, except to say that, if he is put in unsupervised with the general prison population, it is almost certain that he will be made somebody's bitch. Even the most hardened of criminals take a very dim view of child molesters (especially serial ones) perhaps because they have family too.

Now while I don't particularly care what happens to Nassar (I consider people who would do what he has done to be the lowest of the scum in prisons) I nonetheless understand that some of the "inmates are victims too" liberals will not want that to happen, so for his own protection, he needs to be under close watch when he's in the exercise yard, and in solitary confinement at all other times. I would hate to see him ever getting to live a "lifestyle" in prison other than hard work for small privileges.

Thankfully, release/parole will never be a consideration... this man has molested/raped hundreds of young girls for almost 30 years (that we know of). It will never be safe to have this man in the community.

 

[Babbylonian]

I nonetheless understand that some of the "inmates are victims too" liberals will not want that to happen...

Perhaps, unlike rape advocates, they simply consider it barbaric not to protect inmates under the absolute control of the state.

 

[smartcooky]

Perhaps, unlike rape advocates, they simply consider it barbaric not to protect inmates under the absolute control of the state.

See, there you go, re-characterising my opinion to suit yourself.

 

[3point14]

I think mistreatment of pedophiles sometimes happens in prison, but I think the incidence and severity is Hollywoodized and vastly overblown. Fact is, child predators finish their sentences and leave prison still living all the time without missing teeth, scars, or disfiguring injuries.

Can I see where you've gained this information from?

 

[3point14]

Perhaps, unlike rape advocates, they simply consider it barbaric not to protect inmates under the absolute control of the state.

I wouldn't bother responding, he really doesn't care. Oh, he keeps banging on about it, but he doesn't care. Honest.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Not true. Some of the victims were college aged women.

It was these women who actually got the ball rolling on the investigations that finally brought him down.

What are college aged women doing in olympic gymnastics, they need to retire when they get that old.

 

[Meadmaker]

Going back to the whole youth-sports thing, it seems that at least some parents consciously approve of some forms of blatant abuse as acceptable practice when carried out by coaches in the context of "sports" and "training". As some of the women giving impact statements describe, coaches and others involved in sports training are deliberately dismissive of child athletes' complaints of pain, injuries, and discomfort because "no pain no gain". They will assert that physical training even when painful or uncomfortable IS in the best interest of the girls.

It sounds to me as if when girls raised concerns to other adults, Nassar was always ready with excuses, invoking "legitimate medical techniques" that simply required his hands to be in very close proximity to the girls' genitals, and that they were just exaggerating or making things up about how close, in order to get out of uncomfortable but necessary treatments. This fit so well with the "stop complaining and push through the pain" approach those adults employed in every other aspect of the girls' training that they readily accepted it and treated the girls concerns as just more complaining.

Think about the "hernia test" for boys described on the last page, as ubiquitous as it is. If a boy tried approaching his middle school, high school, or non-school sports coach complaining that the doctor he was sent to keeps trying to fondle his testicles and it makes him uncomfortable and he doesn't think it's right, what do you think the coach is going to tell him? Shut up. Stop being such a pansy. Everybody has to go through it. It's a common and legitimate medical procedure to check for a hernia. How old are you - you really think you know better than an actual doctor what is a real or acceptable medical procedure and what isn't? In reality, the doctor could be a pedophile taking advantage of free access to children's private parts and taking extreme liberties during his "exams", but the boy would be completely unable to convince other adults that something was wrong.

I understand that it's hard to distinguish between pushing kids hard to achieve, and abuse. The truth is that if you want to be a world champion, you are going to push very hard, and there will be pain, and it will help if there's a coach/mentor/parent/all of the above who demands more and makes you go when you want to stop.

Gymnastics, though, seems to be full of people who take that too far. It's not just that they have to work hard or train to ridiculous levels. It almost seems like they have to sacrifice their entire identity. They become these drones that exist for the purposes of brining fame to themselves but, more importantly, to the body of people who make their living by turning out those gold medals. They have to promise not just to keep to a training schedule, but to be obedient to their overlords.

The ultimate extreme in this is Larry Nassar. People complain, but they are kids, which means they are tools. They are the raw materials of this process. Their feelings and concerns are of no consequence. Their only job is to feed the machine that is their gym, their coaches, and ultimately USA Gymnastics. The abuser was part of the machine, and no one questioned him, as long as the trophies and, ultimately, gold medals, kept coming. This guy got results, so no one wanted to hear anything bad about what went on when he was working his magic.

 

[Thermal]

I understand that it's hard to distinguish between pushing kids hard to achieve, and abuse. The truth is that if you want to be a world champion, you are going to push very hard, and there will be pain, and it will help if there's a coach/mentor/parent/all of the above who demands more and makes you go when you want to stop.

Gymnastics, though, seems to be full of people who take that too far. It's not just that they have to work hard or train to ridiculous levels. It almost seems like they have to sacrifice their entire identity. They become these drones that exist for the purposes of brining fame to themselves but, more importantly, to the body of people who make their living by turning out those gold medals. They have to promise not just to keep to a training schedule, but to be obedient to their overlords.

The ultimate extreme in this is Larry Nassar. People complain, but they are kids, which means they are tools. They are the raw materials of this process. Their feelings and concerns are of no consequence. Their only job is to feed the machine that is their gym, their coaches, and ultimately USA Gymnastics. The abuser was part of the machine, and no one questioned him, as long as the trophies and, ultimately, gold medals, kept coming. This guy got results, so no one wanted to hear anything bad about what went on when he was working his magic.

Very much agreed. Bit of a thread drift, but I wonder if these child athletes can really even consent to this level of training, and the attendant risks and vulnerabilities. The adults don't feel the pain that the athletes are enduring for results, yet the adults are the ones raising the performance bar. I love the Olympics, but I think it would sit better with me if the competitors were adults. Children, as you say, are not gladitorial raw meat to be sculpted to collect medals.

 

[3point14]

. I love the Olympics, but I think it would sit better with me if the competitors were adults. Children, as you say, are not gladitorial raw meat to be sculpted to collect medals.

It's a difficulty with Ladies Gymnastics. In an attempt to create gymnastic events in which ladies were able to exceed the performance of gentlemen, the sport indeed created events that ladies were better at then men but, because of the emphasised traits, children were even better than ladies.

There's no real way around it.

 

[theprestige]

See, there you go, re-characterising my opinion to suit yourself.

Kind of like how you recharacterize anyone who disagrees with you on this as an "inmates are victims too" liberal.

On whose authority would Nassar be subject to the special treatment you prescribe? Would the judge order it? The warden?

 

[Bob001]

More on the culture of girls' gymnastics:

Joan Ryan: I think it fits in exactly, tragically, with the thesis of my book. It’s a culture where abuse is normal. The abnormal becomes normal.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics...nastics-toxic-culture.html?via=recirc_engaged

 

[Dr. Keith]

It helps if you actually understand how hernias are detected.

It also helps if those overseeing the treatment insist that the doctor never interact with an athlete alone. Would it be so cost prohibitive to have another adult with some level of medical training in the room during treatment? Not necessarily an RN, but someone.

I have a friend who is a retired sports medicine doctor and he says any current practitioner who treats patients alone is just asking for lawsuits. Seems obvious, really. Although, he admits it wasn't something he did right out of school, but adopted along the way.

Any medical professionals want to opine on what current best practices are for this sort of treatment and testing?

 

[3point14]

It also helps if those overseeing the treatment insist that the doctor never interact with an athlete alone. Would it be so cost prohibitive to have another adult with some level of medical training in the room during treatment? Not necessarily an RN, but someone.

It would need to be at least an RN, I would think? Anyone with no formal medical training is going to find it much more difficult to challenge the MD.

I have a friend who is a retired sports medicine doctor and he says any current practitioner who treats patients alone is just asking for lawsuits. Seems obvious, really. Although, he admits it wasn't something he did right out of school, but adopted along the way.

Any medical professionals want to opine on what current best practices are for this sort of treatment and testing?

 

[smartcooky]

Kind of like how you recharacterize anyone who disagrees with you on this as an "inmates are victims too" liberal.

Part of the whole liberal philosophy is that they are soft on crime and short on applying consequences for bad behaviour. This is not me characterising anything, its just common knowledge..

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-trudeau-liberal-justice-crime-marijuana-1.3292965

On whose authority would Nassar be subject to the special treatment you prescribe? Would the judge order it? The warden?

What kind of question is this?

Prisoners are often accorded individual handling depending on their circumstances, their crimes or who they are

some are put in isolation for their own protection.
some are in put in solitary confinement to protect other prisoners.
some are disconnected from the outside world entirely so that they cannot do things such as order hits against witnesses, or continue to run their criminal enterprises, from inside prison.

Find out who makes those decisions and you'll answer your own question?

 

[Bob001]

It also helps if those overseeing the treatment insist that the doctor never interact with an athlete alone. Would it be so cost prohibitive to have another adult with some level of medical training in the room during treatment? Not necessarily an RN, but someone.
....

In the Nassar cases, he was "treating" girls in hotel rooms and other non-medical spaces, and sometimes their parents and others were present in the room. Maybe patients, especially young girls, should be taught that if a doc wants to see you alone or outside his office, he's usually up to no good.

 

[Trebuchet]

It also helps if those overseeing the treatment insist that the doctor never interact with an athlete alone. Would it be so cost prohibitive to have another adult with some level of medical training in the room during treatment? Not necessarily an RN, but someone.

I have a friend who is a retired sports medicine doctor and he says any current practitioner who treats patients alone is just asking for lawsuits. Seems obvious, really. Although, he admits it wasn't something he did right out of school, but adopted along the way.

Any medical professionals want to opine on what current best practices are for this sort of treatment and testing?

I think Nassar actually fingered little girls with their parents in the room. And got away with it.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Part of the whole liberal philosophy is that they are soft on crime and short on applying consequences for bad behaviour. This is not me characterising anything, its just common knowledge..

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-trudeau-liberal-justice-crime-marijuana-1.3292965

Experts hope the new Liberal government will steer Canada on a criminal justice course that is less punitive and more effective than the Conservatives' "tough-on-crime" agenda.

Yes, looking to have a more effective system is certainly just being soft on crime.

 

[Dr. Keith]

In the Nassar cases, he was "treating" girls in hotel rooms and other non-medical spaces, and sometimes their parents and others were present in the room. Maybe patients, especially young girls, should be taught that if a doc wants to see you alone or outside his office, he's usually up to no good.

I think Nassar actually fingered little girls with their parents in the room. And got away with it.

These are disturbing details that must haunt those parents. I really feel sorry for them.

Although it does validate my thought that a medical professional would be best. But I really don't know that much about the field. (see disclaimer about not being a medical doctor)