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Lambda-CDM theory - Woo or not?

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If suns are mostly composed of iron and nickel rather than mostly hydrogen and helium, might that change anything?

Why would it? By your own admission, our estimate for the mass of the sun is correct. And we have methods of measuring the mass of other stars too which don't depend upon their composition.

How do you know that your mass estimates of baryonic material in a galaxy has any merit whatsoever? As far as I can tell you missed it by a mile and now your trying to cover up the mistake by fudging the numbers with mythical objects.

Except that it's not simply the total mass which doesn't match the visible mass, even the mass distribution doesn't match the visible mass.

I don't need to know the maths related to gasoline to benefit from the product.

You do if you want to claim that you've got a better gasoline engine design than what's currently on the market.
 
If suns are mostly composed of iron and nickel rather than mostly hydrogen and helium, might that change anything?
Nope.

How do you know that your mass estimates of baryonic material in a galaxy has any merit whatsoever? As far as I can tell you missed it by a mile and now your trying to cover up the mistake by fudging the numbers with mythical objects.
We have multiple independent experiments using different methods which show exactly the same phenomenon.

No, my logical question is "where did you *QUALIFY* your theory in the lab"? Neutrino astrophysics is certainly "science" in every empirical sense. Solar astrophysics is "science" even if I don't agree with your solar model. It's only when you start slapping math to the side of dark, invisible friends that I start to expect to see you qualify the idea or I will certainly squeal like an invisible dark pig. :)
I measured G in the lab once. I've also measured g too.

It's only when we come to the dogma of mainstream astronomers where we can never actually benefit from anything they claim exists in nature, and we have to be math geeks to "have faith" in the "proper way". Even though your dark energy supposedly makes up 75% of the universe, it is utterly impotent in any experiment on Earth.
Gravity is impotent on the scale of subatomic particles. What's your point?

Even though you claim non baryonic dark matter makes up 5 times as much of the universe as the dirt my backyard, you can't produce a gram of the stuff here on Earth?
We can't produce a gram of antiprotons either.

Even though inflation is dead and gone, I'm supposed to "have faith" it once existed anyway, no controlled "tests" will ever be possible. Why? Because you whipped up a math formula.
We can observe its effects on the structure of the Universe we see around us. Observations are not acts of faith.

Your dogma requires that I make several leaps of faith, starting with 'faith" in your bayonic mass estimation techniques which obviously aren't worth the paper they are printed on.
Erm. Care to show us how all the papers that agree consistently with each other are wrong? I mean, if its so obvious it should be trivial for you. It seems to have escaped everybody else though. Hey, there could be a medal in it for you.
 
DeiRenDopa said:
If we replace "baryonic mass estimates" with (ISM or IGM) "magnetic field strength estimates", to take just one example, does anything change?
If suns are mostly composed of iron and nickel rather than mostly hydrogen and helium, might that change anything?
As others have said, no.

More interesting, perhaps, is why you think it might; would you care to say a few words please?

How do you know that your mass estimates of baryonic material in a galaxy has any merit whatsoever?
(bold added)

My mass estimates? How do you know what they are? How do you know that I have produced any (let alone published any)???

As far as I can tell you missed it by a mile and now your trying to cover up the mistake by fudging the numbers with mythical objects.
And how, may one ask, did you arrive at that conclusion?

Specifically, what analyses did you do? Which papers did you read?

No, my logical question is "where did you *QUALIFY* your theory in the lab"? Neutrino astrophysics is certainly "science" in every empirical sense. Solar astrophysics is "science" even if I don't agree with your solar model. It's only when you start slapping math to the side of dark, invisible friends that I start to expect to see you qualify the idea or I will certainly squeal like an invisible dark pig. :)
Well, as there is already another thread on this topic, and as your contributions to it are, shall we say, less than logical (or, perhaps, coherent), I guess no one will pay much attention to how you squeal, or even if you squeal.

You've personally ignored all the objective material I've offered you, and you've run from those RD and Doppler images like a frightened little girl for over four years. Why should anyone care what you think.

I don't need to know the maths related to gasoline to benefit from the product. I can drive my car and benefit from it, regardless of whether or not I can mathematically explain the inner workings of the engine or detail the combustion processes of gasoline during the power cycle. I can do the same thing with electricity. I don't need to know how my computer works in every mathematical detail to be able to benefit from it.

It's only when we come to the dogma of mainstream astronomers where we can never actually benefit from anything they claim exists in nature, and we have to be math geeks to "have faith" in the "proper way". Even though your dark energy supposedly makes up 75% of the universe, it is utterly impotent in any experiment on Earth. Even though you claim non baryonic dark matter makes up 5 times as much of the universe as the dirt my backyard, you can't produce a gram of the stuff here on Earth? Even though inflation is dead and gone, I'm supposed to "have faith" it once existed anyway, no controlled "tests" will ever be possible. Why? Because you whipped up a math formula. Your dogma requires that I make several leaps of faith, starting with 'faith" in your bayonic mass estimation techniques which obviously aren't worth the paper they are printed on.
Enjoyed that little rant did you MM?
 
As others have said, no.

I love how you folks are so sure of yourselves. :)

More interesting, perhaps, is why you think it might; would you care to say a few words please?

Well, look at Birkeland's mass calculations in the ISM for one thing.

My mass estimates? How do you know what they are? How do you know that I have produced any (let alone published any)???

You're defending these estimates aren't you?

And how, may one ask, did you arrive at that conclusion?

The mass estimates are *WAY* off target according to the lensing data. Rather than just admit the original calculations were worthless, your industry is simply inventing new types of matter with all sorts of special and unique properties that were simple "made up" to make it fit right. That was my first clue.

Specifically, what analyses did you do? Which papers did you read?

Before or after you folks stuffed yet another metaphysical entity called "dark energy" into BB theory? Every time some "prediction" fails to match expectation, we observe the birth of yet a new metaphysical entity to fill in the gaps.

Well, as there is already another thread on this topic, and as your contributions to it are, shall we say, less than logical (or, perhaps, coherent), I guess no one will pay much attention to how you squeal, or even if you
squeal.

Well someone sure is paying attention to this thread and I'm the one that started squealing. :) This thread that I started now has nearly 30,000 views. Someone is certainly interested in this topic and others also believe that Lambda-CDM theory is woo. I'm not the only pig that is squealing, that is certain.

http://www.cosmologystatement.org/

Enjoyed that little rant did you MM?

Yes indeed. :)
 

How can you "know" that with such certainty? A better question is "How do you know your baryonic mass calculations are accurate? There are a million and one reasons why the numbers could be off. What makes you sure it has anything at all to do with exotic and hypothetical forms of matter?

We have multiple independent experiments using different methods which show exactly the same phenomenon.

The all show that the methods used *GROSSLY* underestimated the mass. So how do you know that mass calculations were ever right?

I measured G in the lab once. I've also measured g too.

Gravity isn't repulsive, and it won't tell you what that "missing mass" is made of.

Gravity is impotent on the scale of subatomic particles. What's your point?

My "point" is that you have no evidence that any of the "missing mass" is in any way related to exotic, hypothetical forms of matter with "properties" that were "made up" in an "ad hoc" manner to make them fit into an otherwise failed theory.

We can't produce a gram of antiprotons either.

http://www.worldscibooks.com/physics/0491.html

We can observe its effects on the structure of the Universe we see around us.

All you know is that your grossly underestimated the mass of a galaxy the first time around.

Observations are not acts of faith.

Observations of "missing mass" are not acts of faith, but pure science. Believing that any of that "missing mass" is related to nonbaryonic matter is a pure act of faith. Show me one experiment that demonstrates the validity of any property you arbitrarily assigned to "dark matter"?

Erm. Care to show us how all the papers that agree consistently with each other are wrong? I mean, if its so obvious it should be trivial for you. It seems to have escaped everybody else though. Hey, there could be a medal in it for you.

The fact astronomers had to make up the properties of "dark matter" *on the fly* simply to make them fit into an otherwise dead theory says volumes! I am not required to "disprove" any theory. All theories require the presentation of evidence to support said theory. All you folks can do is provide "evidence" for in lensing data evidence that your mass calculations didn't work properly and there is more mass in a galaxy than you imagined. That in no way demonstrates that exotic forms of matter exist and have all the properties that have now been assigned to "dark matter". The properties of non baryonic dark matter are simply "made up" and "made to order" based on what will and will not fit into an otherwise dead theory. In no way can you demonstrate that any form of "dark matter" actually exists in nature. All you can demonstrate is that current mass estimation techniques do not work.
 
Why would it? By your own admission, our estimate for the mass of the sun is correct.

Even if the mass of our sun is correct, what makes you think it has no effect on stars of every size? What about all those calculations that Birkeland made about the amount of iron in the ISM?

And we have methods of measuring the mass of other stars too which don't depend upon their composition.

That is true but there isn't even any guarantee that the "missing mass" is even located in stars at all.

Except that it's not simply the total mass which doesn't match the visible mass, even the mass distribution doesn't match the visible mass.

Ya, but a bunch of dead iron suns floating around out there might have some influence on the layout of mass.

You do if you want to claim that you've got a better gasoline engine design than what's currently on the market.

Let me see you deliver and sell a real consumer product that runs on or uses "dark matter" or "dark energy" and *THEN* you can tell me how your design is so much more useful. As it stands now, it's all marketing hype and empty promises. In the market place that would be called "false advertising". Your dark stuff doesn't seem to show up here on Earth.
 
Dead Iron Suns!

What about all those calculations that Birkeland made about the amount of iron in the ISM?
All wrong, obviously.
Ya, but a bunch of dead iron suns floating around out there might have some influence on the layout of mass.
They might indeed. But "dead iron suns" are not invisible by a long shot. We have the technology to see them but we don't. Therefore it is entirely reasonable to conclude that they are not there.

As I said in another discussion ....

The most efficient way to determine that something is not there is too look for it and not find it. Do that long enough, and it becomes reasonable to assume that the thing you are looking for remains unseen because it really is not there. When Zwicky (Zwicky, 1933; Zwicky, 1937) and Oort (Oort, 1932) first developed the "missing mass" problem, they knew quite well that there was a lot of perfectly ordinary matter that would be simply too dim for them to see, so they did not consider any need for exotica.

However, during the intervening decades, observational capabilities in astronomy have grown enormously. In their day only visible light astronomy was practical, but today we have high resolution and high sensitivity capabilities all the way from long radio to short gamma-ray wavelengths, and we have telescopes with light collecting area as much as 16 times what they could do (i.e, the Keck 10-meter vs. the Mt. Wilson 2.5-meter). We have developed the capability to rule out "ordinary" baryonic matter on the grounds that if it were there, we would see it. So, for instance, thanks to the Hubble Space Telescope, we now know that there are not enough red dwarf stars in the Milky Way halo to account for the missing mass (and see Bahcall, et al., 1994). Gravitational microlensing studies can expand that to assure that there are not enough compact objects of any kind, "normal" or "exotic", to account for the missing mass (Pratt, et al., 1996; Alcock, et al., 1996; Yoo, et al., 2004).

When we look at the "bullet cluster" (Clowe, et al., 2006) we see that the baryonic intracluster mass, visible in X-rays, is not spatially coincident with where we know the mass to be located. only the galaxies are there, but we know that the masses of the galaxies are an order of magnitude too small to account for the observed gravity. We know this partly because we know the stellar mass-luminosity relationship, and we can estimate non-stellar mass by comparing the galaxies to similar type galaxies in the local universe, where non-stellar mass can be directly observed and accounted for. There may be a lack of desired precision, but not a significant lack of accuracy.

In general, gravitational lensing reveals that there appears to be a great deal of gravity in the universe, without the visible matter one would normally associate with mass (i.e., Massey, et al, 2007). At some point the constant association of gravity in the absence of detectable mass has to be dealt with seriously. Non-baryonic dark matter is an elegant and reasonable idea, despite your unreasonable objections. It's no more serious than the simple assumption that there is more of the same kind of stuff we already know about (i.e., neutrinos), but have simply not detected yet.

So there is good reason to believe that most of the mass is not normal baryonic matter. Of course, that is not the unanimous consensus of the community. Quite a few groups are working on the obvious alternative, that we have the law of gravity wrong, and that by modifying it we can dispense with "dark matter" altogether (and maybe "dark energy" as well). But it is the majority opinion primarily because it is much the simpler idea.

Then there is the problem of actually figuring out some new law of physics that would allow all those "dead iron suns" to exist at all. Now that's a real example of "marketing hype and empty promises".
 
After reading through the plasma cosmology thread today, I'm curious how mainstream Lambda theory would hold up to the same level of scrutiny? What exactly does Lambda-CDM theory "predict" without the use of unfalsifiable and unverifiable entities?

For instance, what empirical evidence supports the idea of inflation? No other known vector or scalar field found in nature will retain near constant density over several exponential increases in volume. The presumed homogeneous layout of matter used to be inflation's primary claim to fame, yet recent observations of "dark flows" would suggest that matter is not homogeneously distributed as "predicted" by inflation. What empirical evidence from controlled experiments demonstrates that inflation even exists in nature?

Dark energy? What is that? How do I get some? What controlled empirical test demonstrates it has any effect on nature?

What about all the so called "properties" of dark matter? How do we verify or falsify these ideas?

In what tangible and demonstrateable way is Lambda-CDM theory any "better" than any other cosmology theory?

Inflation is a model we accept because it is required to stabalize the time required to start a universe approximately 14 billion years ago. If inflation was not real, we are left with a lot of time to ''flatten'' all that background energy to about 10,000th of an error.

Suffice to say, it's needlessly fussy, and is itself a creation of an outdated big bang theory. Big bang then is the main one to be concerned about, since if big bang is wrong, then inflation surely is too. But we have a lot of experimental evidence supporting the big bang, the evidence you are looking for.

Dark Matter is simply a matter which does not experience the elecromagnetic forces so it is not visible to light, however, we have just recently discovered the existence of the axion, which is a dark matter candidate. The implications? Who knows, time will tell.
 
How can you "know" that with such certainty?
Easy, if stars were made of iron and nickel but had the same mass that wouldn't change the dynamics at all (look at Newton's law of gravity). If they had greater masses than we thought then our understanding of gravity would be wrong... not just on a galactic scale but on a solar system scale!

A better question is "How do you know your baryonic mass calculations are accurate?
Through multiple, independent experiments that give the same answer.

There are a million and one reasons why the numbers could be off.
Name ten (sensible ones).

What makes you sure it has anything at all to do with exotic and hypothetical forms of matter?
Because we know the properties of non-exotic matter pretty well. They cannot fill the void. If it can't be non-exotic matter it must be exotic.

The all show that the methods used *GROSSLY* underestimated the mass. So how do you know that mass calculations were ever right?
Err. They're not right. That's the whole point! Because the masses calculated from visible matter and the from the rotation curves of galaxies do not agree we must conclude that there must be matter we can't see. Because we can't see it we call it "dark" matter. We know it can't be unexotic matter because unexotic matter would be visible to some degree. Therefore it must be exotic.

Gravity isn't repulsive,
Huh? What does that have to do with anything.

and it won't tell you what that "missing mass" is made of.
Nope, but it tells you that its there and what it isn't made of (it isn't made of massive compact halo objects).

My "point" is that you have no evidence that any of the "missing mass" is in any way related to exotic, hypothetical forms of matter with "properties" that were "made up" in an "ad hoc" manner to make them fit into an otherwise failed theory.
Your point is wrong. we have conclusive evidence that it is made up of exotic matter because we know it can't be made up of unexotic matter (precisely because we can study unexotic matter in the lab). Concluding otherwise would actually be rejecting our understanding of unexotic matter gleaned from lab based experiments!

Yes. We make ~ nanograms per year. You'll be waiting a long time before we have a gram of the stuff (don't believe Dan Brown!). This rather illustrates the point though. Even matter which is only slightly exotic is very difficult to make. So much so that it'd take us millions of years to make a gram of the stuff. Now consider trying to study stuff that is
a) more exotic
b) doesn't interact through strong or EM interactions.
And you're surprised that we don't have a gram of the stuff???

All you know is that your grossly underestimated the mass of a galaxy the first time around.
And that we can't rectify this estimate using the known (from wonderful lab based experiments) properties of unexotic matter. Therefore we conclude that the matter must be unexotic.

Observations of "missing mass" are not acts of faith, but pure science. Believing that any of that "missing mass" is related to nonbaryonic matter is a pure act of faith.
Incorrect. Its largely an act of ruling out the other possibilities.

Show me one experiment that demonstrates the validity of any property you arbitrarily assigned to "dark matter"?
This is a bit of a weird question but anyway...
Property 1) dark matter is not electrons. We know from literally thousands of experiments (pick one for yourself) that electrons interact through the electromagnetic interaction. We know that dark matter does not interact through the electromagnetic interaction otherwise it wouldn't be dark.

The fact astronomers had to make up the properties of "dark matter" *on the fly* simply to make them fit into an otherwise dead theory says volumes!
What dead theory? You're not talking sense. Dark matter is required because our total and visible matter estimates do not agree. One observation does not agree with another. This is independent of any theory except for that of gravity. Are you claiming our theory of gravity is dead??? Do you have a better one? I'm sure everybody is very interested to here you're new improved theory of gravity. Especially that commitee in Stockholm.

I am not required to "disprove" any theory. All theories require the presentation of evidence to support said theory. All you folks can do is provide "evidence" for in lensing data evidence that your mass calculations didn't work properly and there is more mass in a galaxy than you imagined.
And that we know that the matter cannot be unexotic therefore it must be exotic. Hence non-baryonic dark matter.

That in no way demonstrates that exotic forms of matter exist and have all the properties that have now been assigned to "dark matter".
Well if it can't be unexotic matter it must be exotic matter. Its been demonstrated unequivocally that the properties of dark matter don't match those of unexotic matter. Are you going to reject the lab experiments that told us what the properties of unexotic matter are?

The properties of non baryonic dark matter are simply "made up" and "made to order" based on what will and will not fit into an otherwise dead theory.
Like I said, the only theory we need to trust that dark matter exists is that of gravity. Are you saying our theory of gravity is dead?

In no way can you demonstrate that any form of "dark matter" actually exists in nature. All you can demonstrate is that current mass estimation techniques do not work.
Nope. See all the above. And the bullet cluster.
 
Search for new particles decaying into electron pairs of mass below 100 MeV/c2
P L Jain et al 2007 J. Phys. G: Nucl. Part. Phys. 34 129-138 doi: 10.1088/0954-3899/34/1/009


PDF (699 KB) | References

.....................

Cousin Of Higgs Boson Detected
http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/200...runc_sys.shtml

A scientist finally proves existence of elusive axion
"Using a visual target/detector, a University of Buffalo researcher has revealed the existence of the axion, a tiny particle with no charge, a very low mass and a lifetime much shorter than a nanosecond." From:
http://news.sawf.org/Health/29483.aspx

P L Jain and G Singh
Department of Physics, University at Buffalo, The State University of New York, Buffalo, NY 14260, USA
Abstract. We report results on 1220 electron pairs produced from a 207Pb beam at 160 A GeV in nuclear emulsion with invariant mass Q ranging between 1 and 100 MeV and lifetime τ between 10-15 s and 10-12 s. These electron pairs were produced at a distance of more than 50 µm from the primary interactions—this distance eliminates contamination due to Dalitz pairs. After subtracting the background pairs from the materialization of photons and also due to the decay of π0 → 2γ from the data, they exhibit enhancement at low mass Q = 6–20 MeV with narrow peaks at 7 ± 1 MeV, 19 ± 1 MeV and τ ≤ 10-13 s.

Print publication: Issue 1 (January 2007)
Received 13 July 2006
Published 28 November 2006
 
You're a victim of slightly exaggerated press releases. The paper from what I've heard (I'm struggling a bit to get the full text so relying a bit on the abstract and other comments elsewhere) doesn't claim an axion detection anyway, but makes reports on results one would perhaps describe as 'interesting'.
 
You're a victim of slightly exaggerated press releases. The paper from what I've heard (I'm struggling a bit to get the full text so relying a bit on the abstract and other comments elsewhere) doesn't claim an axion detection anyway, but makes reports on results one would perhaps describe as 'interesting'.
Interesting that anyone would put to this as mere ''hyper'' activity among the press, for if this is true, then they are not hyper about it for no reason. It's obvious that bigger, badder boys and garls in the PhD buisiness have studied these results through a peer-reviewed analysis and found them, dare i say without hurting your feelings, found pretty valid.
 
Interesting that anyone would put to this as mere ''hyper'' activity among the press, for if this is true, then they are not hyper about it for no reason. It's obvious that bigger, badder boys and garls in the PhD buisiness have studied these results through a peer-reviewed analysis and found them, dare i say without hurting your feelings, found pretty valid.

It certainly doesn't hurt my feelings if my colleagues hold a different point of view to me. In this case though, my point of view is led largely by the community consensus from particle physicists as I'm not a particle physicist myself and I would surely not grasp all the details of the paper in question.

The community consensus does seem to be that the axion has not been definitively detected. The paper itself doesn't even make a strong claim of a detection.
 
Interesting that anyone would put to this as mere ''hyper'' activity among the press, for if this is true, then they are not hyper about it for no reason. It's obvious that bigger, badder boys and garls in the PhD buisiness have studied these results through a peer-reviewed analysis and found them, dare i say without hurting your feelings, found pretty valid.
If it was true then the papers would be hyper about it for a reason.
If it was false than the papers would have wasted their time being hyper about it.
Being hyper about it does not mean anthing about validity.

The "bigger, badder boys and garls in the PhD buisiness" did peer review the paper and found it valid. That does not mean that the press releases had anything to do with what was in the paper.

If you have a statement from the paper where P.L. Jain and G. Singh claim to have definiely discovered the axion then please produce it.
I suspect that what they say is what the language of the paper's title and abstract suggests: their analysis supports the posibility that axions exist.

And if you like press releases, this is what New Scientist said "Hint of dark matter caught on camera".
 
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