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Kyusho/Tuite Application

Still irrelevant.

This thread was about the effects AFTER the technique is applied, not about whether or not someone is 'bad' enough to prevent the technique from ever being applied.
Something as simple as wearing a suit of armor would prevent tuite techniques from being applied, but would provide no information on whether or not they were paranormal or whether or not they worked, which is the puprose of this forum.

Amazing how people have jumped from that simple premise, to claims that Western medicine cannot explain light force knockouts, to inferences that no one can ever be rendered unconscious without a force equivalent to a baseball bat swung full speed, and then to sales pitches that their deadly style is the superior martial art.

In every case, when asked to contribute something useful to THIS discourse on THIS forum, staying on THIS topic, the response has been the usual trollage of straw men, twisted words and backpedalling.

I suspect that the deadly challenge stylists, when asked how they fared on Erle Montaigue's $100,000 challenge (the martial art's equivalent of Randi) will trot out the usual Sylvia Browne woo-woo excuse...
"We won the money and kept it a secret" or "We didn't want to corrupt our deadly style with mere money" or "There isn't really any money, so we didn't apply for the challenge", or my favorite..."What challenge?"

Sad really...the machismo and con artistry that these people apply to simple mechanics and training methods...
 
Phrost said:


Who said I was trying to work within the scientific method? Perhaps I just wanted to pound on you.




And what exactly is paranormal about pain compliance techniques and cutting off the bloodflow to your brain? Of course if I cram my knuckle into the niche behind your ear and jaw it will hurt. The same goes for chokes.

How does this qualify as proof of something paranormal?



Again, nothing supernatural here. If you bend something the wrong way, it hurts. BFD. How much did you charge people to learn this?

In case you've forgotten, this is your claim:



This has nothing to do with the JREF anymore. This is about Bullshido, selling people garbage and claiming it will keep them safe in dangerous situations.

Your test requires a compliant person who allows himself to be placed in a position which would be at the very least, difficult to obtain in a realistic situation. Unfortunately for you, fighting doesn't work that way.

The only way you could structure a test to prove your skills have a practical application would be to attempt to apply them on a variety of opponents who are actively trying to resist you.

Again, if you would like to prove that your claims aren't Bullshido, I have given you an option to do so.

Considering Austin is about a 3-4 hour drive from Houston, perhaps you'd like to show up to one of our Throwdown events there, and prove your abilities.

http://bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8991

Here's a link to the discussion. [/B]
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Shut up and go hug some more half-naked men.
 
As for continuing the real discussion...

I will post a step by step description of the technique (one with no striking but pressing/twisting- joint manipulation) and we can go from there.

Here is another thought. Is there something that we could use instead of hitting? Maybe low-level current to the correct spots?
 
Phrost said:

Of course he's not interested in proving his claims can be applied to a realistic situation; it's much easier to dupe a bunch of people ignorant of real martial arts.
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From what I can tell GS seeks to be tested in a scientific manner of a skill he says he has. I don't think that is "duping"; that is seeking to be scientifically tested. :) Your challenge is interesting, but tangential to this issue.


Heck, Randi himself was taken in by SCARS, a well known martial art that's chock-full of pseudoscience and impractical/unrealistic techniques that are as unproven as this guy's claims.
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I searched the Swift archives and only found this: http://www.randi.org/jr/103103.html, where in response to a reader telling Randi about SCARS being non-metaphysical, scientific, and other information, Randi says "My apologies. I'm now better informed. Thank you." How that is exactly "taken in" I fail to see. Have you emailed Randi and informed him about your beliefs about SCARS? He might post about it in a future Swift.
 
Looks like GS doesn't want to prove his ability to KO people using "light force" in any medium, let alone an actual competition.

Phrost, as usual, if you call these people out, they will find every excuse to decline. This is an experience that I am sure you see on your website alot.
 
Since Thaiboxerken has conveniently gone deaf, I'll repeat in caps:

WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THE $100,00 DOLLARS ERLE MONTAIGUE PUT UP TO CHALLENGE PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND THE DEADLY BULLSHIDO FIGHTERS?

If you can't answer that simple question, then you are pretty much in a woo-woo position when it comes to claims of having called someone else out.

Simply put, Erle Montaigue offered $100,000 dollars, in the same manner as Randi,...show up, show us what you've got, and go home with your money.

For years, no one claimed Erles's prize money, much the same as Randi's. (And interestingly enough, Erle Montaigue is one of the world's best known proponents of pressure point techniques...in other words, one of the 'ilk' that TBK and the Deadly Bullshido Stylists claim to have scared off).

Now we have these keyboard commandos desperately trying to derail any discussion of the actual mechanics of martial techniques with their pseudo challenges and claims to have called people out, but the simple question remains...why couldn't TBK, or the DBS people simply show up and collect their prize money?

Makes you go Hmmm, doesn't it?

Maybe this thread should move to the Critical Thinking section, to keep the focus on whether or not GS's claim can be properly designed to fit the JREF test parameters.
 
thaiboxerken said:
Looks like GS doesn't want to prove his ability to KO people using "light force" in any medium, let alone an actual competition.

Phrost, as usual, if you call these people out, they will find every excuse to decline. This is an experience that I am sure you see on your website alot.
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It looks like GS wants to test his claimed skill in a scientific fashion and is making attempts to do so.

I find it absolutely incredible that you have a problem with that and try to persit with interesting, but entirely tangential, side challenges.
 
Simply put, Erle Montaigue offered $100,000 dollars, in the same manner as Randi,...show up, show us what you've got, and go home with your money.

I'm not making a claim, I'm doubting a claim. I doubt that a person can use light touch alone to KO people. About this $100,000 challenge.......... where is the information about this challenge? Is there a link? Is this like Ashida Kim's 10K challenge?

I really have never heard of Erle Montaigue or his challenge.

I mean, if I could show up to his place and let him touch me and not get KO'd for $100,000....... I'd do it. I doubt that he'd fight only using light touch techniques though.

it seems that this is another "shift the burden" type of challenge. Like the "prove there is no afterlife" challenge.
 
Hey crimresearch (you a CSI or criminalist?), could you point me to some info on the EM challenge? I remember having heard of it several years ago, but don't remember much about it.

I have pretty mixed feelings on pressure point stuff. I think they can be effective, but doubt many claims regarding them. One really has to look at them on a case by case basis to separate wheat from the chaff.
 
I'm a use of force researcher, certified as an expert consultant in both federal and state courts, who studies police defensive tactics, and use of force training and equipment. Also a former cop, police trainer, criminology professor, and a 40year practitioner of martial arts.

I run a laboratory similar to Consumers Union, testing police batons, and so on for effectiveness, and liability concers.

I also use the forcepads, strain guages, etc. from my lab ( along with other methods) to evaluate various martial arts styles that claim to be 'real combat'.

Of course none of *that* has anything to do with the thread either, since I haven't really put my own positon up for testing like GS has...I am interested in seeing what results he gets in case something useful emerges.

Paul

PS..the Erle Monaigue challenge was around for at least 15+ years, and I don't have any of the old magazines, etc that wrote it up..even so, he never got any takers, and it was front page stuff in all the martial arts pubs.
 
"PS..the Erle Monaigue challenge was around for at least 15+ years, and I don't have any of the old magazines, etc that wrote it up..even so, he never got any takers, and it was front page stuff in all the martial arts pubs."

This supposed challenge is not evidence that light-touch KO's actually happen, are effective or work. Until you can actually post details of the challenge and the actual text of it, I can't even really ensure that it's a legitimate challenge at all. For all I know, this could be another Ashida Kim BS challenge that is written to be a win/win situation for Erle.
 
Except that you were the one who hijacked this thread from the condition for the JREF test, into a discussion about 'fighting', and running away from challenges.

As I recall, you quickly changed the subject to this after you were shown links to several medical articles on syncope/light force KOs, which you claimed didn't exist. And neither you, nor Apoger have yet to post any evidence to back up the assertion that such syncope KOs are impossible.

And as I predicted, after pointing out how 'fighting' challenges are beside the point, and negated by Erle's open challenge, you are now backpedalling in true Uri Geller/Sylvia Browne/Yellow Bamboo woo-woo fashion...'What challenge...it might be a trick'
If you have any evidence to support your suggestion that Erle may fall into the category of " if you call these people out, they will find every excuse to decline", go ahead and post it, but you are just digging yourself in deeper.

You are the one posting bogus reasons for declining, not Erle.

Folks who have been around a while may disagree with a lot of Erle's mystical ***theories***, but no one has ever said that he couldn't fight, or that he was issuing a fake challenge to his face.

If you are unable to grasp the difference between the fighting abilities neccessary to make a light touch technique work against a combative opponent, and testing them on a compliant subject, you really aren't bringing anything to this particular discussion except your talk about challenges and fighting, now are you?

And as others have already pointed out to you, there are plenty of places where you can go talk about who could kick who's ass (the Bullshido forum seems appropriate for such stuff).

So pardon those of us professionals who scientifically study this sort of thing in the real world, if we don't get dragged down into a RMMA type cycle of challenges and boasting. There are plenty of folks such as yourself and Phrost, who seem better suited to inhabiting those bragging right forums. As for myself, I've got some real research to do.
 
Except that you were the one who hijacked this thread from the condition for the JREF test, into a discussion about 'fighting', and running away from challenges.

False. I am still talking about the subject matter at hand. Light-touch KO's have no evidence to support the notion that they actually happen or are reliable. GS has also not given an actual claim that can be tested.

As I recall, you quickly changed the subject to this after you were shown links to several medical articles on syncope/light force KOs, which you claimed didn't exist.

False, you have given no medical articles that have outlined ligh-touch/light force KO's being done.

And neither you, nor Apoger have yet to post any evidence to back up the assertion that such syncope KOs are impossible.

It is not upon the skeptic to disprove or debunk the claims of the believers. You have a claim, please support your claim. Until you do, I will not believe you.

And as I predicted, after pointing out how 'fighting' challenges are beside the point, and negated by Erle's open challenge, you are now backpedalling in true Uri Geller/Sylvia Browne/Yellow Bamboo woo-woo fashion...'What challenge...it might be a trick'
If you have any evidence to support your suggestion that Erle may fall into the category of " if you call these people out, they will find every excuse to decline", go ahead and post it, but you are just digging yourself in deeper.

False, you pull this Erle challenge out of your arse, yet you cannot give any details about it. I have serious doubts that Erle has posted a challenge where he would beat people up using only light -touch techniques.

You are the one posting bogus reasons for declining, not Erle.

How could anyone accept a challenge that they never heard of? Give me details of the challenge, then maybe we can ascertain as to the reasons why it may or maynot be a bogus challenge.

Folks who have been around a while may disagree with a lot of Erle's mystical ***theories***, but no one has ever said that he couldn't fight, or that he was issuing a fake challenge to his face.

This may, or may not be true. I would have to learn about the challenge to make that judgement myself. Erle may not be a good fighter as well, I wouldn't know, I've never heard of him. I'm not going to believe that he is good, simply because you say so.

If you are unable to grasp the difference between the fighting abilities neccessary to make a light touch technique work against a combative opponent, and testing them on a compliant subject, you really aren't bringing anything to this particular discussion except your talk about challenges and fighting, now are you?

I doubt taht light-touch techniques would work in either condition. Please give evidence that they have.

And as others have already pointed out to you, there are plenty of places where you can go talk about who could kick who's ass (the Bullshido forum seems appropriate for such stuff).

This is true, but I could care less about that. We're talking about whether or not light-touch KO's actually happen, and if they are actually effective.

So pardon those of us professionals who scientifically study this sort of thing in the real world, if we don't get dragged down into a RMMA type cycle of challenges and boasting. There are plenty of folks such as yourself and Phrost, who seem better suited to inhabiting those bragging right forums. As for myself, I've got some real research to do.

Feel free to reference some scientific studies that outline the effectiveness of light-touch/light-force KO's.

All of your hot-air and rhetoric mean nothing until you can actually back them up with evidence.
 
crimresearch, thanks for sharing your background; it sounds really interesting! I'd love to put my statistical skills to work analyzing data from experiments like that.


PS..the Erle Monaigue challenge was around for at least 15+ years, and I don't have any of the old magazines, etc that wrote it up..even so, he never got any takers, and it was front page stuff in all the martial arts pubs.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. I'll keep looking around and see what I can find.
 
alfaniner said:
I think it's important to remember that Randi isn't interested in explanations of how or why the paranormal powers work, only that they do work.
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Thank goodness. I thought no one was going to say it.

Groundstrength we've now gone three pages. In the midst of the truly impressive BS and the testosterone spraying competition, we seem to have neglected to insist on pinning you down on the ONLY important thing.

Exactly what is it that you are going to do?

Don't bother with a half page of mumbo jumbo about yins, yangs, meridibloodians, 43 elements of this, half a litre of bats blood and an old asian saying or 12.

Just tell us what, in simple, physical, objective terms you are going to do.
 
I am working on something that I think will satisfy all camps as an explanation of what, where and how hard right now. So TBK is again wrong that I don't want to test it. The challenge issued by 'Fanatical Phrost' is something I am considering accepting, but that will have nothing to do with the JREF challenge and will just be to get these MMA to shut the hell up.

I will post something by the COB tomorrow on what it need to be and may request that it be moved to the moderated area.


TBK, as usual thanks again for keeping the issue cloudy.
 
Phrost, your challenge is irrelevent and purely self serving. It's not for this forum. You obviously don't have the brains to challenge on an interlectual level so everything has to come back to violence.

TBK, I'm suprised you have supported this. You're not helping your cause. You seem to want to test GS scientifically, then go and support someone who is not interested in this at all. Make your mind up.

GS, I'm interested to hear what you have to say. I don't think you have a real claim to test, but that's just my opinion. I'm willing to be proved wrong.
 
GS, I'm interested to hear what you have to say. I don't think you have a real claim to test, but that's just my opinion. I'm willing to be proved wrong.
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robbersdog,

I don't know if it is paranormal either, but there is something happening.

Again to make my stance clear...

I DO NOT believe in NO-TOUCH knockouts.

I DO NOT believe in NO-TOUCH healing.

I DO NOT beleive that the mechanism that is causing the KO's is something intangeable called CHI.

I DO believe that I can do these KO's with light force*.

I AM willing to test this with the JREF.

I DO need the help of those in this thread who have something to add to the discussion.

I AM considering Phrost's challenge (I am 36. Have four kids a wife and bills so I am wary of taking a risk).

I DO NOT believe that MMA matches bear any resemlance to what happens when you are attacked on the street or when working the door.

I DO think that MMA matches seem a little gay (too much half-naked hugging and sweating, okay I'm just taking the piss here)

There now I know that TBK will come and misrepresent my POV again but that is exprected.


* Light force will have to be defined before the test
 
robbersdog said:
Phrost, your challenge is irrelevent and purely self serving. It's not for this forum. You obviously don't have the brains to challenge on an interlectual level so everything has to come back to violence.

TBK, I'm suprised you have supported this. You're not helping your cause. You seem to want to test GS scientifically, then go and support someone who is not interested in this at all. Make your mind up.

GS, I'm interested to hear what you have to say. I don't think you have a real claim to test, but that's just my opinion. I'm willing to be proved wrong.
Click to expand...

In the spirit of bringing GS's claims closer to critical examination, I'll tone down what some have taken as aggression as it seems some cannot handle it very well. I apologize to you robbersdog, if my writing hasn't been up to your "interlectual" standards.

But if you re-read my posts, you'll see that I've said myself that this challenge is ancillary to this issue.

For those of you unaware, or in some cases, defecient in reading comprehension, I run a website devoted to exposing fraud in the martial arts. We've spent much time critically examining claims of "Chi", one-touch knockouts, and the like from hucksters like Yellow Bamboo, George Dillman, and others.

So perhaps it's my fault for taking for granted the general public's ignorance of the slime that infests the martial arts.

GS:The challenge issued by 'Fanatical Phrost' is something I am considering accepting, but that will have nothing to do with the JREF challenge and will just be to get these MMA to shut the hell up.

Who are "these MMA" you're speaking of? I've got more experience in Chinese Martial Arts than I do in training for combat sports.

To keep from further derailing the thread, if you're serious about demonstrating your skills I suggest you follow the link I provided above.

Now that it's handled, I would also like to see you respond, directly, to this:

Exactly what is it that you are going to do?

Don't bother with a half page of mumbo jumbo about yins, yangs, meridibloodians, 43 elements of this, half a litre of bats blood and an old asian saying or 12.

Just tell us what, in simple, physical, objective terms you are going to do.

And now that we're no longer using this thread to discuss any arrangements between the two of us, consider the floor yours to respond to this.


--Edited to correct italics tags.
 
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