Kyusho/Tuite Application

[Kevin_Lowe]

In a lot of techniques, the reaction is against the mass of the body, or a reactionary movement, rather than through the feet. If you were really good you could punch someone without putting any extra force through your feet.

I think you'd better call Newton before you publish this. He deserves to be the first to know he was wrong.

You can punch the air without exerting any force with your feet. The moment you exert a force on another body, like a bag or a human, something has to stop you gliding backwards through the air in a straight line until you encounter another object. That "something" is your feet.

You could hide this effect by pulling on the body of the person you are hitting, or by pinching/crushing as The Boy Paj suggested, or by hitting on a vertical line. But if you are exerting a force horizontally, you are exerting an equal and opposite force on the floor to remain in place.

 

[Graham]

No. Just nursing some broken ribs that won't seem to heal. Thanks for the reminder TBK can't wait to get things going.

Can you tell what the paranormal element of your ability is yet?

This is a genuine question, btw, not an attempt to bait or annoy you or anything like that.

Graham

 

[thaiboxerken]

GS, since you can KO people by simply touching them... why do your ribs need to be healed for the test? What happened to having your wife do the test? Why did your claim turn from "touch ko" to "combination of grappling and light force"?

 

[GroundStrength]

Can you tell what the paranormal element of your ability is yet?

This is a genuine question, btw, not an attempt to bait or annoy you or anything like that.

Graham

Graham,

There is no paranormal element that I am aware of. Randi, in past writings has frowned upon the TCM model. I suggest that it is valid within the framework of attacking the body.

 

[GroundStrength]

GS, since you can KO people by simply touching them... why do your ribs need to be healed for the test? What happened to having your wife do the test? Why did your claim turn from "touch ko" to "combination of grappling and light force"?

They don't, however I haven't been doing much of anything since I broke them. Grappling and light force strikes are touching the uke my claim has not changed.

But you have a nice day all the same...

 

[thaiboxerken]

Yea, and a Muay Thai kick to the thigh is a touch as well.

Your claim has changed from "I can touch points of a body to KO people" to " grappling and light-force". While one is required to touch another person to grapple and apply light-force, the grappling or light force is not required to touch a person. You cannot win the JREF million dollars with semantics, you dolt.

 

[GroundStrength]

Yea, and a Muay Thai kick to the thigh is a touch as well.

Your claim has changed from "I can touch points of a body to KO people" to " grappling and light-force". While one is required to touch another person to grapple and apply light-force, the grappling or light force is not required to touch a person. You cannot win the JREF million dollars with semantics, you dolt.

Shut up you stupid jack-ass.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Only if you Dim Mak me.

 

[Graham]

Graham,

There is no paranormal element that I am aware of. Randi, in past writings has frowned upon the TCM model. I suggest that it is valid within the framework of attacking the body.

I see, so it's more equivalent to a test of homeopathy than a test of, say divining or remote viewing.

The challenge state:

I, James Randi, through the JREF, will pay US$1,000,000 to any person who can demonstrate any psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability under satisfactory observing conditions. Such demonstration must take place under these rules and limitations.

To be honest, I don't see how homeopathy would fit into that even if it did work.

Regardless, your "ability" is the ability to knock people out with a "light touch" (semantic quibbling aside, Ken!), correct?

AFAIK, however, there is no question over whether it is possible to knock someone out with a "light touch" - it is possible if you hit the right points (nerve clusters or whatever). Again, I am open to correction on this point.

So all you would be demonstrating would be that the method (the TCM model) used to teach you to find those points is valid.

How does that warrant the $1M? I would liken it to trepanning - an early form of brain surgery (head/skull surgery really). In some (many?) cases ifproperly performed it was effective but the reasoning behind it and the rituals associated with it were often total horse manure. If you were to try the same procedure with modern methods and applying modern medical knowledge you would get the same results but better and more often.

Do you see what I'm getting at? Trepanning was (and is) a valid method of achieving certain results. In modern times it is discounted as, well, pretty crazy really in its ancient forms, but that doesn't make it paranormal or anything like that even though it does work

Again, I'm not trying to get at you here. I find this topic very interesting as I used to be involved in an "internal" martial art form myself.

Graham

 

[thaiboxerken]

AFAIK, however, there is no question over whether it is possible to knock someone out with a "light touch" - it is possible if you hit the right points (nerve clusters or whatever). Again, I am open to correction on this point.

I am going to correct you right now. There is much doubt that KO's with light touches is possible. That's what is being challenged here, people have doubted the touch-ko's and have called GS to prove it. Whether he's using a TCM model or not is not relevant. Again, the JREF challenge cares not about theories, but about results.

 

[crimresearch]

"There is much doubt that KO's with light touches is possible. That's what is being challenged here, people have doubted the touch-ko's and have called GS to prove it."

The mere existence of doubters isn't sufficient. The question would be if the doubters have anything on their side other than a stubborn refusal to admit the obvious.

The mechanism for inducing light touch/light force KOs (baroceptors, RAS shutdown, etc.) is clearly known and well understood, and has been explicated by Western medical professionals in any number of texts. Not only are light touch KOs possible, the brain/body is 'hard wired' to induce them as a protective measure.

So other than semantic quibbling over the range covered by the term 'light touch', you may wish to provide something better than 'much doubt' in the way of refutation of such a well documented physiological reaction.

Paul

 

[Graham]

The mechanism for inducing light touch/light force KOs (baroceptors, RAS shutdown, etc.) is clearly known and well understood, and has been explicated by Western medical professionals in any number of texts. Not only are light touch KOs possible, the brain/body is 'hard wired' to induce them as a protective measure.

This is my understanding too and, that being the case, I cannot see how there is a case for the million to be awarded to anyone demonstrating these techniques (regardless of the training method they have used).

Graham

 

[crimresearch]

I'm of the mind that there is a baby/bathwater situation at work here.

Just as acupuncture may be consigned to the woo bin for its curative claims, even while people can demonstrate its pain relieving effects, TCM has some stuff that seems pure quackery, some stuff that appears to work in ways that aren't totally mapped out by Western science, and some cases of TCM labelling things well understood by the West in a mystical manner that coincides with, but doesn't truly explain the phenomena.

By saying 'all acupuncture is woo', or 'all TCM is woo', there appears to be an implicit challenge that anyone who can make either of those 'woo' modalities work will win the JREF prize, and yet there are folks who can make acupuncture relieve pain, and tuite cause knockouts.

I'm guessing that the JREF Challenge screening process contains some mechanism for clarifying the question.

Paul

 

[apoger]

The question would be if the doubters have anything on their side other than a stubborn refusal to admit the obvious.

If there is evidence then present it. Declaring it "obvious" is inadequate.

The mechanism for inducing light touch/light force KOs (baroceptors, RAS shutdown, etc.) is clearly known and well understood, and has been explicated by Western medical professionals in any number of texts. Not only are light touch KOs possible, the brain/body is 'hard wired' to induce them as a protective measure.

Outstanding! Then it should pose no problem at all for you to offer evidence. After all it has been "explicated by Western medical professionals in any number of texts".

So other than semantic quibbling over the range covered by the term 'light touch', you may wish to provide something better than 'much doubt' in the way of refutation of such a well documented physiological reaction.

Sorry, but debate over the definition of the claim is vital. Otherwise we don't know what is being claimed. If I claim that I can leap tall buildings in a single bound, but when asked about the definition of "tall" I obfuscate, wouldn't that create doubt about what I was really claiming?

Furthermore it is not the responsibility of the skeptics to refute the claim, but the responsibility of those making it to provide evidence. If I claimed to be able to leap tall buildings with a single bound, it would not be appropriate for me to say "It's obvious I can do it" nor "Show me that I can't do it". The burden would be upon me to show that it can be done. Until then it is quite correct to doubt.

Again, if this is so "well documented" then you should have no problem offering evidence to convince us of the validity of the claim.

Just as acupuncture may be consigned to the woo bin for its curative claims, even while people can demonstrate its pain relieving effects,

The pain relieving effects of acupuncture are hardly established as fact. There are some indications that it may, but it's not conclusive and remains controversial.

I'm guessing that the JREF Challenge screening process contains some mechanism for clarifying the question.

Of course it does.

They ask questions and define everything. Then they have the claimant support their well defined claim under controlled circumstances.

 

[crimresearch]

I've presented definitive evidence.

What should be no problem would be for you to drag your lazy ass over to a medical text, and look up baroceptor effect, RAS, TIA, and raphe nucleus.

If after that, you remain unconvinved that the Western medical model is a valid paradigm, I suggest you consult with your medium.

On the other hand, if you expect me to do all of your research for you, you can wish in one hand, and defecate in the other, and see which one fills up quickest.

Paul

 

[apoger]

I've presented definitive evidence.

Hardly.

All you did was toss out the terms "baroceptors" and "RAS shutdown".

Baroreceptors are specially adapted groups of nerve fibres. However simply stating "baroreceptors" is not very compelling. I have done some quick research on them and cannot find references to people being knocked out by light touches to baroreceptors. Nor was I able to find any reference to baroreceptors being used as evidence for TCM's validity. If this is so well documented perhaps you can help me with this.

Information on "RAS shutdown" proved even more elusive. Is this a reference to Renal Artery Stenosis? Please let us know what "RAS" stands for. Oh yes, and how does it relate to the topic at hand...

What should be no problem would be for you to drag your lazy ass over to a medical text, and look up baroceptor effect, RAS, TIA, and raphe nucleus.

I assume that TIA is transient ischemic attack, which is similar to a mini-stroke? Very good. Now tell me how this is evidence that light touches can knock a person out. I'd also like to know how TIA is evidence of the validity of the TCM model.

The Raphe Nucleus is a serotonin containing area of the brain stem which aids in the regulation of sleep. Interesting! Yet I fail to understand how this validates TCM nor explains light touch knock-outs.

You have tossed out a number of medical terms, mixed in some attitude, and declared the result obvious. I'm sorry sir, but that in no way shows anything beyond your knowledge of a few medical terms, and your arrogance.

When you are ready please explain how any of these things relate to the topic under discussion.

On the other hand, if you expect me to do all of your research for you, you can wish in one hand, and defecate in the other, and see which one fills up quickest.

I see we are in the presence of a real intellectual.
When I grow up I want to be as smart and mature as you.

 

[Prolix]

RAS

Reticular Activating System

(but crimresearch seems to have only puerile knowledge of what he speaks)

 

[apoger]

Thank you for the guidance Prolix.


"The Reticular Activating System is a functional (rather than morphological) system in the brain essential for wakefulness, attention, concentration and introspection."

Very good. It's part of the brain. Certainly something that may have to do with light touch knock-outs. Now all we need is information establishing how.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I'd just like to see someone actually KO a person with a light touch. People can use all kinds of science and texts to claim that it's possible.......... but until it's actually demonstrated in an objective test, I simply won't believe it. Again, the JREF is not really interested in theories, just results.

If light touch KO's really happen, why don't they happen during competitive fights? Why are they always anecdotal?

You can believe that it happens, but does it really happen? I'm simply doubting the claims. Are there scientific studies on this ? Is so, please let us know.

One can claim that they do light KO touches using RAS principles...but that doesn't mean they/ or anyone can.

Example.. I can claim to KO people with my voice. I stimulate the nerves in the ear, which in turn are processed in the brain and stimulate the same nerve centers that stimulate the heart. That causes defribulation, which is essentially a KO. (heart attack)

While my claim sounds scientific, does it really man that people can KO people with voice alone?

 

[crimresearch]

Sorry, but you are the ones making the extraordinary claims, i.e. that Western medical explanations for various light force knockouts are bogus.

It is incumbent upon those making such claims to support their challenge to established research with some evidence.

If someone taking the anti-scientific explanation side would care to point me in the direction of some refereed studies supporting their position, I'd love to see them.
I'm aware of some disagreement on the precise operation of the mechanisms, but I'm not aware of any support for Apoger's contention that there is no such phenomenon.

So, for now I'll stick to the previously referenced mechanisms involving mild trauma to the head or neck, and the resultant chain of neural and physiological activations resulting in vasovagal syncope.

In other words, sometimes a light force to the right place, on the right person, can induce unconsciousness.

Please feel free to prove otherwise.

Paul