KSM to be tried in NYC

[Algebra34]

A person who commits a terrorist act and then admits to it.

There needs to be proof they committed it more than just admitting to it. How do you know KSM did everything he supposedly admitted to? Especially since he has also claimed he likes to make up stories? Do the same people trying to convict him believe all of his past stories or just convient ones?

 

[TexasJack]

There needs to be proof they committed it more than just admitting to it. How do you know KSM did everything he supposedly admitted to? Especially since he has also claimed he likes to make up stories? Do the same people trying to convict him believe all of his past stories or just convient ones?

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Feb2008/d20080211chargesheet.pdf

 

[332nd]

There needs to be proof they committed it more than just admitting to it.

You mean like a known connection to others involved in the crime who's DNA was found at the scene?

How do you know KSM did everything he supposedly admitted to?

Oh I doubt he did everything.

Especially since he has also claimed he likes to make up stories?

So everyone in Hollywood is above the law?

Do the same people trying to convict him believe all of his past stories or just convient ones?

Do you believe he's innocent because there is no evidence or because it's convenient?

 

[TruthersLie]

This is true. I know. But is it right? Not only by US standards but by the world? Is this why the CIA was convicted in Italy? It's much more complicated than some wishful thinking people want to admit. We can't just do whatever we like especially when it's a contradiction to our own constitution. We have no credibility anymore.

Under the recognized conventions of war, a un uniformed enemy combatant should be executed on the battlefield as a spy.

The fact that they are still breathing and undergoing trial is in fact BETTER than what the conventions on war allow. So hey... try them. If you fail to convict them, then walk them out and put a bullet in their brains as un uniformed enemy combatants.

Our constitution should not apply to non citizens (though sometimes the SC has tried to claim it protects illegals and people in US custody... I disagree). Unless you are making the case that EVERYONE EVERYWHERE is protected by the US constitution...

 

[TruthersLie]

How long are they enemy combatants? Who determines you are an enemy combatant in the first place and by what authority?

ON the fact that you are on a battlefield attacking uniformed troops from a nation state AND you are not in uniform representing a nation state.

That makes you an enemy combatant and the only protections offered are to be shot on sight as a spy.

 

[Travis]

Under the recognized conventions of war, a un uniformed enemy combatant should be executed on the battlefield as a spy.

The fact that they are still breathing and undergoing trial is in fact BETTER than what the conventions on war allow. So hey... try them. If you fail to convict them, then walk them out and put a bullet in their brains as un uniformed enemy combatants.

Our constitution should not apply to non citizens (though sometimes the SC has tried to claim it protects illegals and people in US custody... I disagree). Unless you are making the case that EVERYONE EVERYWHERE is protected by the US constitution...

I think KSM is guilty as hell but I don't buy your idea that we should have two criminal justice systems: one for citizens and one for everyone else.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

I think KSM is guilty as hell but I don't buy your idea that we should have two criminal justice systems: one for citizens and one for everyone else.

We already have three criminal justice systems. State, federal and the military (if you are a service member at the time of the crime). Triple jeopardy if you will. Quadruple jeopardy if you throw in the civil courts and you have something material worth taking away from you.

The most visible example of this that I can think of is the Rodney King double trial of the police for the same crime first acquitted by the state of California then brought up again on federal charges for the same crime under hate crime laws instead.

I knew one Chief Petty Officer (E-7) that was driving drunk and killed a passenger in his car, he did 7 years in a state prison and did another 5 years in a military prison for the same crime. I don't know if there was a civil trial but they certainly had a case if they wanted to pursue it.

 

[Travis]

We already have three criminal justice systems. State, federal and the military (if you are a service member at the time of the crime). Triple jeopardy if you will. Quadruple jeopardy if you throw in the civil courts and you have something material worth taking away from you.

The most visible example of this that I can think of is the Rodney King double trial of the police for the same crime first acquitted by the state of California then brought up again on federal charges for the same crime under hate crime laws instead.

I knew one Chief Petty Officer (E-7) that was driving drunk and killed a passenger in his car, he did 7 years in a state prison and did another 5 years in a military prison for the same crime. I don't know if there was a civil trial but they certainly had a case if they wanted to pursue it.

All true. I was, however, referring specifically to the Federal Court. Sorry about the ambiguity.

 

[triforcharity]

I think KSM is guilty as hell but I don't buy your idea that we should have two criminal justice systems: one for citizens and one for everyone else.

I have to respectfully disagree. I think, that in the case of enemy conbatants, as set by the Geneva Convention, than they should have very little rights.

Now, should armies from an actual nation be afforded the rights of our nation? Yes.

I don't think that rogue agents should be entitled to any of our rights. Not even one.

 

[T.A.M.]

I have to respectfully disagree. I think, that in the case of enemy conbatants, as set by the Geneva Convention, than they should have very little rights.

Now, should armies from an actual nation be afforded the rights of our nation? Yes.

I don't think that rogue agents should be entitled to any of our rights. Not even one.

So how should John McCain have been treated when he was a POW (which are by definition Enemy Combatants)?

TAM

 

[TruthersLie]

Tam there is a vast difference.

McCain was a uniformed member of a recognized military organization being tortured by the military of another nation.

That is vastly different than un uniformed thugs who train for an organization who swears no allegiance to any nationality. As such those thugs do not deserve any protections.

ETA: Michael Walzer has written an EXCELLENT book called Just and Unjust wars which examines war and how it is fought and has been fought. He has several great chapters on this very subject.
http://www.amazon.com/Unjust-Argument-Historical-Illustrations-Classics/dp/0465037054

 

[T.A.M.]

Tam there is a vast difference.

McCain was a uniformed member of a recognized military organization being tortured by the military of another nation.

That is vastly different than un uniformed thugs who train for an organization who swears no allegiance to any nationality. As such those thugs do not deserve any protections.

ETA: Michael Walzer has written an EXCELLENT book called Just and Unjust wars which examines war and how it is fought and has been fought. He has several great chapters on this very subject.
http://www.amazon.com/Unjust-Argument-Historical-Illustrations-Classics/dp/0465037054

I am not arguing that to you and I, and most people, there is not a distinct difference, but if you go by the term "Enemy combatant",

Enemy combatant is a term historically referring to members of the armed forces of the state with which another state is at war.[1][2] Prior to 2008, the definition was: "Any person in an armed conflict who could be properly detained under the laws and customs of war." In the case of a civil war or an insurrection the term "enemy state" may be replaced by the more general term "Party to the conflict" (as described in the 1949 Geneva Conventions Article 3).[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_combatant

The historical use of the word would have all soldiers who are captured in wartime, whether they be terrorists or uniformed infantry, the same.

Now I suspect most now refer to "Enemy Combatants" as this,

In the United States the use of the phrase "enemy combatant" may also mean an alleged member of al Qaeda or the Taliban being held in detention by the U.S. government as part of the war on terror. In this sense, "enemy combatant" actually refers to persons the United States regards as unlawful combatants, a category of persons who do not qualify for prisoner-of-war status under the Geneva Conventions. Thus, the term "enemy combatant" has to be read in context to determine whether it means any combatant belonging to an enemy state, whether lawful or unlawful, or if it means an alleged member of al Qaeda or of the Taliban being detained as an unlawful combatant by the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_combatant

In which case, I would like to know who OKed such a term, and how did they make the determination as to which rights such a person should have or not?

I mean is the argument that these men should receive NO trial, NO defense besides what their own mouths may utter.

I am hardly a defender of terrorists, but It seems to me if the USA is to come out from under the shadow created for it as a hypocritical bully, then providing these men, as HORRID as they are, with a trial might be a good idea. As to whether it is the right, or just thing to do...well that is another question...and a good one.

TAM

 

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

If Truthers had their way in court it'll look something like this:

 

[willhaven]

I think, that in the case of enemy conbatants, as set by the Geneva Convention, than they should have very little rights.

I'm not sure that KSM qualifies as an enemy combatant.

Pretty sure he qualifies as an unlawful combatant. Which the supreme court ruled were still given access to US federal courts like KSM will be tried in.