KochGate?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Are you saying the deficit is a ruse?

The need for the emergency Budget Repair Bill has been said to have been a ruse.

Wisconsin Gov. Walker Ginned Up Budget Shortfall To Undercut Worker Rights

rolling back worker's bargaining rights by itself saves almost nothing on its own. ..

..."Walker was not forced into a budget repair bill by circumstances beyond [his] control," says Jack Norman, research director at the Institute for Wisconsin Future -- a public interest think tank. "He wanted a budget repair bill and forced it by pushing through tax cuts... so he could rush through these other changes."

The governor is taking advantage of that deficit which he made bigger with tax cuts that go into effect in a few months to push unrelated legislation through.

The issue here is the falsehood that somehow taking away bargaining rights from state workers is necessary to address the budget. Walker keeps repeating that claim. It is unsupportable. Then we hear Walker telling a rich contributor impersonator that breaking the unions is Walker's goal. We hear Walker telling the public he is only interested in the budget and he is not trying to bust the unions.

And did you catch the other clause in the bill people are not yet talking about? Walker will get the authority to sell off the state's public power utilities on a no bid basis and coincidentally some unnamed 'client' is already advertising on a headhunter website for experienced power plant people to work in WI.

Walker's other Hidden Agenda: Sell off the Power Plants

Say you were a Libertarian and agreed with this. Why the "no-bid" clause?

Maybe because Walker has already negotiated with a crony? Just who is the energy client in this ad?

 

[Kestrel]

Someone tell me why the propaganda campaigns that portray "tax the rich" and the unions as evil incarnate, have been so readily bought by so many people? Is the scam really that hard to recognize?

It is for people who have been raised from childhood to equate net worth with moral worth.

 

[Frank Newgent]

Walker may be playing hockey but apparenty hasn't figured out there are no fish under the ice.

 

[WildCat]

First, if you lower the federal deficit, then you don't need to slash aid to states. So money being fungible, cutting defense helps state budgets.

Uh, what?

 

[Reginald Hobbes]

The need for the emergency Budget Repair Bill has been said to have been a ruse.


The governor is taking advantage of that deficit which he made bigger with tax cuts that go into effect in a few months to push unrelated legislation through.

The issue here is the falsehood that somehow taking away bargaining rights from state workers is necessary to address the budget. Walker keeps repeating that claim. It is unsupportable. Then we hear Walker telling a rich contributor impersonator that breaking the unions is Walker's goal. We hear Walker telling the public he is only interested in the budget and he is not trying to bust the unions.

And did you catch the other clause in the bill people are not yet talking about? Walker will get the authority to sell off the state's public power utilities on a no bid basis and coincidentally some unnamed 'client' is already advertising on a headhunter website for experienced power plant people to work in WI.



Say you were a Libertarian and agreed with this. Why the "no-bid" clause?

Maybe because Walker has already negotiated with a crony? Just who is the in this ad?

The Talking Points story is wrong. Can't post links yet, if you google Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureau you can read the report.

Reading the transcript, Murphy keeps bringing up subjects, trying to trick Walker into saying something bad. His replies attempt to walk a line without offending what he thinks is billionaire contributor. A man Walker obviously does not know well since he didn't recognize an imposter. Murphy must have studied under Rich Little.

If Walker really does "give away" the power plant to Koch Industries, I'll admit I was wrong.

 

[Distracted1]

If placing additional limits on the rights of public employee unions to collectively bargain is somehow critical to rescuing the Wisconsin budget, why hasn't the governor attempted to also restrain the rights of those public sector unions that supported him?

Since the argument seems to be that future negotiations will unduly favor the unions, hence the need for the limits, the Republican supporting unions should also be subject to those limits.

 

[Reginald Hobbes]

I agree, the police and fire unions should be included as well.

One nitpick: only 4 out of 314 police and fire unions supported Walker in the election.

 

[Unabogie]

Uh, what?

You're aware that the federal goverment sends money to states?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The Talking Points story is wrong. Can't post links yet, if you google Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureau you can read the report.

Reading the transcript, Murphy keeps bringing up subjects, trying to trick Walker into saying something bad. His replies attempt to walk a line without offending what he thinks is billionaire contributor. A man Walker obviously does not know well since he didn't recognize an imposter. Murphy must have studied under Rich Little.

If Walker really does "give away" the power plant to Koch Industries, I'll admit I was wrong.

You can always type out links with a few extra spaces. We know how to find stuff.

Here's the bill itself

OTHER STATE GOVERNMENT
Currently, this state owns and operates numerous heating, cooling, and power
plants that were constructed by the state to provide heating, cooling, and power to
state facilities. The Department of Administration (DOA) determines the method of
operation of these plants and may delegate this authority to any other state agency
that has managing authority for a plant. This bill permits DOA to sell or contract
for the operation of any such plant. The bill exempts such sales and contracts from
the requirement for approval of the Public Service Commission (PSC) that may
otherwise apply under current law...

...16.896 Sale or contractual operation of state−owned heating, cooling,
and power plants. (1) Notwithstanding ss. 13.48 (14) (am) and 16.705 (1), the
department may sell any state−owned heating, cooling, and power plant or may
contract with a private entity for the operation of any such plant, with or without
solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best
interest of the state. Notwithstanding ss. 196.49 and 196.80, no approval or
certification of the public service commission is necessary for a public utility to
purchase, or contract for the operation of, such a plant, and any such purchase is
considered to be in the public interest and to comply with the criteria for certification
of a project under s. 196.49 (3) (b).

If you've ever heard any politicians running for office in a casual conversation, they often repeat their campaign speech regardless of who they are talking to. Walker repeats his speil in the call, that's all. It doesn't mean he believes that stuff. Walker also refers to "this is our time" and a few other revealing bits in between the speil that records his true intent.

 

[Reginald Hobbes]

You can always type out links with a few extra spaces. We know how to find stuff.


If you've ever heard any politicians running for office in a casual conversation, they often repeat their campaign speech regardless of who they are talking to. Walker repeats his speil in the call, that's all. It doesn't mean he believes that stuff. Walker also refers to "this is our time" and a few other revealing bits in between the speil that records his true intent.

Tried putting spaces in the link, the board would have none of it.
Anyway, what I was referring to debunks the story that Wisconsin had a surplus that Walker turned into a deficit.

You're right, he may not actually believe his spiel. But then again, he might.
His terms as Milwaukee County Executive show that he has done (or attempted to do) everything he campaigned on. In that time I don't recall anyone offering any evidence that his private views are different than his public speeches.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Tried putting spaces in the link, the board would have none of it.
Anyway, what I was referring to debunks the story that Wisconsin had a surplus that Walker turned into a deficit.

You're right, he may not actually believe his spiel. But then again, he might.
His terms as Milwaukee County Executive show that he has done (or attempted to do) everything he campaigned on. In that time I don't recall anyone offering any evidence that his private views are different than his public speeches.

You didn't have trouble here. And it looks like you've passed the no link hurdle of 15 posts. How about posting the link now and we can continue the discussion?

Lots of evidence has been posted Walker didn't say squat about defeating unions in any of his campaign speeches. And the issues in Milwaukee were not fully known until after the governor election.

The Last Time Scott Walker Went Union Busting, He Was Overruled And Wasted Taxpayer Dollars

While his anti-union crusade proved to be a boondagle for Milwaukee County, Walker had escaped in time to wash his hands clean of it, as the arbiter’s ruling against didn’t come down until last month — after Walker had been sworn in as governor.

 

[Reginald Hobbes]

You didn't have trouble here. And it looks like you've passed the no link hurdle of 15 posts. How about posting the link now and we can continue the discussion?

Lots of evidence has been posted Walker didn't say squat about defeating unions in any of his campaign speeches. And the issues in Milwaukee were not fully known until after the governor election.

The Last Time Scott Walker Went Union Busting, He Was Overruled And Wasted Taxpayer Dollars

Here is the report.
Rachel Maddow stopped reading at page 2 where there appears to be a $121 million surplus in the general fund. But on page 3 we find two outstanding debts, totaling $258 million. When you add those together, the books are $137 million in the red.

Some people are assuming Walker's goal is union busting, much like others who assume Obama's goal is a socialist USA. The evidence for either one depends on your biases.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Here is the report.
Rachel Maddow stopped reading at page 2 where there appears to be a $121 million surplus in the general fund. But on page 3 we find two outstanding debts, totaling $258 million. When you add those together, the books are $137 million in the red.

Some people are assuming Walker's goal is union busting, much like others who assume Obama's goal is a socialist USA. The evidence for either one depends on your biases.

You are starting to blur the two related thread topics.

And the other thread being as long as it is means new people don't know some things have been discussed already. I can only suggest you not dismiss this discussion as a debate with ignorant liberals who doubt WI's budget deficit or who don't know Walker's tax break doesn't go into effect until the next 2yr budget cycle without checking if the issue wasn't already addressed.

The taped conversation, which is this thread's topic, reveals Walker's goal is union busting and Walker is a liar that it is not his goal. It's been shown the urgency of the crisis was "ginned up" to claim an emergency budget bill was needed, (this is not the normal legislative procedure for the state), the deficit was made to look worse by tax cuts even if those cuts make the next budget look worse and don't apply to the current shortfall, and the union and power plant clauses in the bill are not there to address any budget shortfall.

 

[Reginald Hobbes]

Sorry, I did not see that surplus/deficit issue had been addressed already. And I have not dismissed you or anyone else as an ignorant liberal.
We interpret the phone call differently. You seem to be going straight to worst case scenario. I give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe I'm biased.
I don't believe the crisis was exaggerated, and there is a history of budget repair bills in this state.
I don't know why the power plant section is in there, it seems to be small potatoes to me.
The collective bargaining changes are there so that local governments and school boards have more options to cut costs in their upcoming budget.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Sorry, I did not see that surplus/deficit issue had been addressed already. And I have not dismissed you or anyone else as an ignorant liberal.
We interpret the phone call differently. You seem to be going straight to worst case scenario. I give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe I'm biased.
I don't believe the crisis was exaggerated, and there is a history of budget repair bills in this state.
I don't know why the power plant section is in there, it seems to be small potatoes to me.
The collective bargaining changes are there so that local governments and school boards have more options to cut costs in their upcoming budget.

Other than Walker just repeating the union power gut is necessary, care to explain the details he's left out and provide a source that confirms gutting the union bargaining powers after they've agreed to all needed concessions is what Walker claims it is, necessary for the local governments to be able to balance their budgets?

Because the way I see it, it's obvious Walker left those little details out because they don't exist. OTOH, the well known tactic, repeat the lie often enough and people believe it, explains Walker's talking points quite well.

 

[Reginald Hobbes]

If the bill were to be passed today, with the pension and insurance contributions and no changes to collective bargaining, it would only apply to state workers.
So even though the unions say they would agree to that compromise, it would not be binding on any local workers or teachers unions.
If those unions don’t want to compromise, we’re left with layoffs and/or tax increases.

 

[johnny karate]

If the bill were to be passed today, with the pension and insurance contributions and no changes to collective bargaining, it would only apply to state workers.
So even though the unions say they would agree to that compromise, it would not be binding on any local workers or teachers unions.
If those unions don’t want to compromise, we’re left with layoffs and/or tax increases.

Then how would it be binding for local unions with the changes to collective bargaining left in?

 

[Reginald Hobbes]

If collective bargaining is not changed, local governments and school boards will have to negotiate with the unions to balance their budgets after state aid is reduced in the upcoming budget.
Some local unions may refuse to give concessions, despite the promises of union leadership in Madison.

Interestingly, contracts are quietly being ratified in various places around the state, before the repair bill and the next budget are finalized.
These localities run the risk of finding themselves in a difficult financial position once the dust settles.

If collective bargaining is changed, local governments and school boards can make whatever changes they deem necessary to cut costs. However, the bill does not compel them to. They may decide to cut nothing and just raise taxes.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

If collective bargaining is not changed, local governments and school boards will have to negotiate with the unions to balance their budgets after state aid is reduced in the upcoming budget.
Some local unions may refuse to give concessions, despite the promises of union leadership in Madison.