Killtown's new "smoking gun" for flight 93, debunked

[Anti-sophist]

I am posting this for educational purposes as it is a "new" theory and I spent some time debunking it (like 9 minutes). You may run into it.

http://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/12/shanksville-forest-mostly-burned-after.html

In it he has a photo I had never seen from WTAE showing the impact area apparently without the fire damage or raging fire in the "trees" section.

His conclusion is because he cannot see the "massive damage" in the trees, that this photo must have been taken before the fires were even set. In it, we see no smoke or raging fire, so his conclusion is obviously that this chopper was the first to get there, before the fires in the forest were even set. His timeline, then, would require this photo to have been taken very soon after the alleged impact, before the fires were set, and then well before the aerials and other photos taken on the 12th and afterwards.

The original is located at this link:
http://images.ibsys.com/2001/0912/957315.jpg

You will notice the date in the URL. That sort of puts the nail in that coffin.

Just FYI.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Good debunking, Anti-sophist, and thanks for the heads-up.

(ETA: The link to the original pic doesn't work for me. )

 

[babazaroni]

The original is located at this link:
http://images.ibsys.com/2001/0912/957315.jpg

You will notice the date in the URL. That sort of puts the nail in that coffin.

Just FYI.

Nice detective work. Of course Killtown will claim the url has been altered.

Killtown tries to compare a far away shot with one taken close and more or less above the burn area and since he thinks they don't look alike, it supports his theory.

Here is the first response:

Now THAT'S a great find! And it makes sense. I bet they burned the forest as part of the cover-up-- perhaps to keep people out of the forest until they had planted enough flight 93 appropriate stuff?

 

[Brainster]

Were helicopters allowed up in the air on 9/12?

 

[Bell]

And ofcourse the Action News chopter was up and in the air over Shanksville well before the 'alleged plane crash' happened

 

[Gravy]

Yeah, Killtown thinks that a news helicopter made it to the remote site before the people who were a few hundred yards away, or the first responders who were down the road.

On his website he has numerous photos of the smoking crater and forest. What a freakishly stupid person he is.

 

[babazaroni]

From this photo:

Killtown claims a trajectory for a device that was supposed to cause fire damage at the impact zone, can be seen. However, he neglects to see that the area next to the burned forest is also burned. This lines up with the aircraft approach shown below:

 

[jaydeehess]

I am posting this for educational purposes as it is a "new" theory and I spent some time debunking it (like 9 minutes). You may run into it.

http://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/12/shanksville-forest-mostly-burned-after.html

In it he has a photo I had never seen from WTAE showing the impact area apparently without the fire damage or raging fire in the "trees" section.

[qimg]http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/7508/1605/320/675928/shanks-aerial-wtae.png[/qimg]

His conclusion is because he cannot see the "massive damage" in the trees, that this photo must have been taken before the fires were even set. In it, we see no smoke or raging fire, so his conclusion is obviously that this chopper was the first to get there, before the fires in the forest were even set. His timeline, then, would require this photo to have been taken very soon after the alleged impact, before the fires were set, and then well before the aerials and other photos taken on the 12th and afterwards.

The original is located at this link:
http://images.ibsys.com/2001/0912/957315.jpg

You will notice the date in the URL. That sort of puts the nail in that coffin.

Just FYI.

Not quite since the 12th could simply be the date the jpeg was loaded on the website.
However in order for this helicopter to be there before any fire was set it would have to have arrived before the fire dept, which would be before the explosion and smoke. How far away from Shankesville is the home town for WTAE? Obviously they would only be in the area before the crash if this were a normal area for them to patrol. It would require them to be in the area when the false (according to killclown) aircraft flew over. This means that the pilot, the reporter, the cameraman and others employed by WTAE are all in-on-it(not that such a thing would bother KT, the more people involved the better). On 9/11/01 at about the time of the crash all aircraft were grounded thus if this was taken shortly after the crash(when fires would still be burning heavily) they would be disobeying the grounding order(very, very bad). thus it is pretty obvious that the date stamp is indeed the date the picture was taken, well after the fires were out.

Furthermore the shadow of the reporter's head illustrates that the sun would be in a position to have the fire area in shadow thus masking the blackened area.

 

[jaydeehess]

Were helicopters allowed up in the air on 9/12?

Good point.
It was made nation wide for all civilian aircraft at 9:25 on Sept 11.

I found two different dates for the lifting order, Sept 13 and Sept 14 BUT I seem to recall that it was lifted first for helicopters which could mean that they were in the air on Sept 12.

 

[Alt+F4]

Why doesn't Killtown just get in touch with the TV news crew and ask them when the photograph was taken?

Oh never mind, the conspiracy liars don't go beyond Google.

 

[Horatius]

Furthermore the shadow of the reporter's head illustrates that the sun would be in a position to have the fire area in shadow thus masking the blackened area.

I agree. All I can see of the trees is a fuzzy black blob, with no details. Not surprising with the general quality of that picture.

Of course, this would have come from a video, right? Does anyone know where that video could be found? It might show a better angle on the trees as the helicopter moves around. I'm not suggesting that Killtown cherry-picked this image, but we have to allow for the possibility that Killtown cherry-picked this image

 

[uk_dave]

Why doesn't Killtown just get in touch with the TV news crew and ask them when the photograph was taken?

Oh never mind, the conspiracy liars don't go beyond Google.

Because the obvious response he would get from the TV station would be:

"Awwww how cute! So, what did santa bring you little boy?"

 

[Mancman]

How does Killtown even manage to breathe?

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

(edit: D'oh. I can't post links yet, but I believe citing my sources is important, so I had to mangle them slightly. Sorry. )

How far away from Shankesville is the home town for WTAE?

WTAE is a local news channel in my area. They're based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

According to Google Maps it's about an 80 mile drive from Pittsburgh to Shanksville. Probably about 70 miles as the crow flies.

Beyond that, though, the man seen in that image is not a reporter; it's then-Governor of Pennsylvania, Tom Ridge¹. The first time he visited the site, according to an article dated September 19th², seems to be September 20, 2001:

Attorney General John Ashcroft is scheduled to visit the crash site with FBI Director Robert Mueller and Gov. Tom Ridge on Thursday.

...although I may be wrong about that. Finding past articles on their site is a real pain.

--
¹ According to the alternate text attached to the exact same image in a slideshow on WTAE's website: html.thepittsburghchannel.com/sh/slideshow/_auto/sh1364s13.html (Note: There's also some pictures of debris that I haven't seen before.)

² thepittsburghchannel.com/news/966339/detail.html

 

[uk_dave]

Killtown throws a paddy...........

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=1876

can we all say "ahhhhhhhhh"?

 

[TC329]

let me take a moment while you're being all smug and conceited, and since Killtown himself is unable to defend himself, to tell you that you are incorrect when you state he claims this was taken on the 11th. He claims it was taken on the 12th and shows no damage to that area.

Don't bother shooting the messenger............

I am posting this for educational purposes as it is a "new" theory and I spent some time debunking it (like 9 minutes). You may run into it.

http://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/12/shanksville-forest-mostly-burned-after.html

In it he has a photo I had never seen from WTAE showing the impact area apparently without the fire damage or raging fire in the "trees" section.

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/7508/1605/320/675928/shanks-aerial-wtae.png

His conclusion is because he cannot see the "massive damage" in the trees, that this photo must have been taken before the fires were even set. In it, we see no smoke or raging fire, so his conclusion is obviously that this chopper was the first to get there, before the fires in the forest were even set. His timeline, then, would require this photo to have been taken very soon after the alleged impact, before the fires were set, and then well before the aerials and other photos taken on the 12th and afterwards.

The original is located at this link:
http://images.ibsys.com/2001/0912/957315.jpg

You will notice the date in the URL. That sort of puts the nail in that coffin.

Just FYI.

​

 

[gumboot]

let me take a moment while you're being all smug and conceited, and since Killtown himself is unable to defend himself, to tell you that you are incorrect when you state he claims this was taken on the 11th. He claims it was taken on the 12th and shows no damage to that area.

Killtown is one of the worst photographic interpreters on the planet.

-Gumboot

 

[Anti-sophist]

Killtown never made the claim the photo was taken on the 11th. I made that conclusion based upon all the other evidence that that would have to be the date of the photo given Killtown's theory. If the arial shots were taken on the 12th, after the fire, and this photo was taken before the fire, the only logical time would be on the 11th... that's the only way the facts would fit his timeline. Killtown, however, blew my mind, instead, by MOVING every other piece of evidence to make the timeline fit. He now claims all those aerial photos taken on the 12th were actually taken at a later date.

As usual, Killtown's argument has now taken a turn for the bizarre. He also thinks this photo "clearly" shows no damage, and thus "clearly" was taken before the fire. I've asked Killtown, since he believes the evidence is so clear, to take this smoking gun to the media. If it's as clear as he says it is, it blows the case wide open. He has yet to do this, as far as I know.

In KT's new theory, the "bomb" went off in the field on the 11th (I guess?). At some point on the 12th, a helicopter photographed the area. The fire was then set. Some time later, aerials were taken and backdated to the 12th. He considers this theory "better".

 

[rjh01]

Killtown is changing his story. He has not, however changed his blog.

To me, it looks unmistakable that the forest section seen in WTAE’s chopper photo and the above video of the scene on the day of the attack looks no where as near as damaged as seen in all the other aerials taken after 9/11 which suggests the forest was further lit on fire to give the illusion that there was more damage to the scene since the perps botched the crash scene up so bad on 9/11.

This is taken from Killtown's blog (link in post 1). I am having difficulty interpreting the above to read that he claims that the photo was taken on any other day other than on 11 September. The bolding is in the original.


Now who is 'dumb?'

 

[Anti-sophist]

A more up-to-date version of his "story" can be found here:
http://colboard.com/viewtopic.php?t=12783&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=210

He has taken a quick trip from "not claiming it was taken on 9/11" which he posted on LC and the other guy repeated here, and now is back towards the original claim of it being taken on 9/11.

The basic reasoning, of course, is the theory becomes totally ridiculous if we assume it was taken on 9/12. I explain it in more detail to KT in that thread, and I think he realizes that. However, last time I thought I had talk some sense in KT by proving that tail sections don't always survive plane crashes, he decided to claim I was wrong and the F4 video was a psyops.