Kid gets suspended after standing up to bully

[qarnos]

No it did not make me physically sick, it made me feel physically sick.

Is there a difference?

 

[Rasmus]

t would have been nice if the defender knew better ways to defend himself that are less likely to severely harm his attacker

Are there any?

And what risks do those carry for the one defending himself?

If whatever the defender does first isn't working he risks another counter attack. Fighting back doesn't mean that you'd want the attacker to eventually stop, the aim is to get him to stop before he has a chance to continue his attack.

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

To be quite frank, you were a bully and if you had been crippled then that would be your own damn fault.

Nice. The other kid was as prepared to fight as I was so I don't really see how that makes me a bully. What I was ashamed of was that I could have walked away rather than letting my peers encourage me into responding and I was trying to illustrate that peer pressure can encourage even non-fighty kids (and I would sure be classed as one of those) to get into a fight. It was after a game of rugby and a dispute on the pitch spilled over as we were walking home. He called me names, I called him names back (actually may well have been the other way round) and we were walking our separate ways. He called after me that I was too scared to say it to his face, I went to walk on and the kids around me encouraged me to go back and say it to his face. I should have just kept on walking but a misplaced and mistaken sense of pride took over and I went back to confront him. The verbal insults escalated, he pushed me, I pushed him, in the sense of kids working themselves up to fight. One of his pushes turned into a punch to the stomach so I punched him in the face and a few punches later he wrestled me to the ground and it was all over. As most of the people around were cheering me on it may well have looked to an onlooker that we were bullying him - especially as I got off more, clear (but completely ineffectual) punches before he wrestled me.

The video reminded me of that event, whilst not being completely analagous, because the difference in size was pretty similar.

Hope that clarifies. If you still think me a bully, then fair enough - you probably have a point, as the presence of numbers of supporters made me feel, mistakenly, more confident of confronting the other kid and embarrassed not to. Not that they'd have actually helped (and indeed didn't), that would have been unfair and was not how we did things in my day. Fights tended to be a few punches until one or other party gave up or started crying. The 'pack' just used to stand around chanting 'Fight, fight, fight!'.

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

Is there a difference?

Er, yes.

Feeling sick - queasy sensation in the stomach.

Being sick - vomit coming out of your mouth. Blowing chunks as it were.

Sorry, don't mean to be patronising, just very confused by your confusion.

 

[qarnos]

Er, yes.

Feeling sick - queasy sensation in the stomach.

Being sick - vomit coming out of your mouth. Blowing chunks as it were.

Sorry, don't mean to be patronising, just very confused by your confusion.

Sorry, it just strikes me as being an odd distinction. Like "I have a headache" and "I feel like I have a headache".

For some reason, this discussion reminds me of the first season of MasterChef Australia: one of the contestants explained that they were "literally cooking for their lives". It really put a whole new spin on the "elimination" aspect of the show.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Sometimes humiliation is far worse than physical injury. I mean, FAR worse.

True. This is a video of how you ideally handle a bully.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6Ig_0LR7m4

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

Sorry, it just strikes me as being an odd distinction. Like "I have a headache" and "I feel like I have a headache".

For some reason, this discussion reminds me of the first season of MasterChef Australia: one of the contestants explained that they were "literally cooking for their lives". It really put a whole new spin on the "elimination" aspect of the show.

No need for apologies and thanks for the explanation.

Yeah 'literally' has become one of the most mis-used words of modern times.

 

[Rasmus]

Actually, what I believe people are arguing is that Casey, in the heat of the moment and under attack, did not stop to think what the consequences of his defensive actions may be. Nothing to do with age.

I am also arguing that

a) it is rediculous to expect someone to stop and think whilst he is being beaten up and

b) that even when thinking about it and being aware of the possible consequences, there's nothing wrong with reacting as he did. In fact, he did much more than anyone could expect let alone demand.

 

[qarnos]

I am also arguing that

a) it is rediculous to expect someone to stop and think whilst he is being beaten up and

Oops - perhaps I should have added that I wasn't advocating that he should have stopped to think! I am 100% with Casey on this.

 

[Rasmus]

Oops - perhaps I should have added that I wasn't advocating that he should have stopped to think! I am 100% with Casey on this.

Oh, I didn't read your bit as saying that you were.

My point was that even if he had the outcome needn't have looked any different.

The kid doesn't need any excuses for how he reacted, even though they might well apply if he did need them.

 

[JoelKatz]

Are there any?

I think there are. Knocking his attacker down, for example.

And what risks do those carry for the one defending himself?

Actually, picking his attacker up carries a lot more risk for him than almost anything else he could have done. It's a very poor strategic choice. But, of course, when you bully people, you assume the risk that they won't be experts in defending themselves so as not to injure you or them. The bully is responsible even if his victim injures themselves in a poor attempt at self-defense.

If whatever the defender does first isn't working he risks another counter attack. Fighting back doesn't mean that you'd want the attacker to eventually stop, the aim is to get him to stop before he has a chance to continue his attack.

I agree. It's the defender's choice. The attacker doesn't get to impose a duty on his victim to find the optimum form of self-defense.

 

[slingblade]

There have been other bullying threads here in which those who endured it as children were told, repeatedly, vehemently, and with a bullying tone, that they should have stood up for themselves and beat the living snot out of just one of the bullies, just once, and it would have stopped. That being bullied was their own fault, because they wouldn't stand up and fight. And it should be a decisive fight, nothing wimpy, make your point once and for all and be done.

Now we see the very thing so stridently insisted upon as the only proper course of action being decried as the wrong thing to do?


Make up your flipping minds, or STFU about things you cannot, apparently, comprehend.

 

[Rasmus]

Nice. The other kid was as prepared to fight as I was so I don't really see how that makes me a bully.

You did say you had started the fight, even though you didn't throw the first punch in the end.

Your longer - snipped - account of what happened doesn't look like you picked the fight as much as that.

The video reminded me of that event, whilst not being completely analagous, because the difference in size was pretty similar.

Why? In the video there is no sign of a prior disagreement or anything. There is no mutual escalations from both sides, no side dares the other to go on or anything of the sort. One kid just walks up to the other and punches him in the face.

There was no point at which the victim here could just have walked away, conceded the point or drop the issue or anything. It is not at all unclear who started the thing and it didn't develop out of a (legitimate or understandable) disagreement.

Hope that clarifies. If you still think me a bully, then fair enough - you probably have a point, as the presence of numbers of supporters made me feel, mistakenly, more confident of confronting the other kid and embarrassed not to. Not that they'd have actually helped (and indeed didn't), that would have been unfair and was not how we did things in my day.

Would the other kid have known that?
Would the other kid have known what the rest of the group would have done had the other kid won?

Fights tended to be a few punches until one or other party gave up or started crying. The 'pack' just used to stand around chanting 'Fight, fight, fight!'.

Charming. But this in no way resembles what I saw in that video.

 

[Dancing David]

fire sale on deletion

 

[Dancing David]

I did. As I have made clear in my posts above. Perhaps you have not read those ones yet in your eagerness to paint me as someone who is sticking up for the bully.

And perhaps you ignored all the posts that have said the same thing you did and did not glory in the fight. And then you continued to use general non-specific language.

If I found out that my children were acting like that bully I would be pissed as hell at my children. I would not say "You got a broken neck because you are stupid", there would be strong consequences and a loss of all privileges for an extended period. Nowing my wife there would also be servive work involved.

 

[Dancing David]

I've honestly never heard of that. If someone walked up to another kid and slugged him, I sure as heck hope the kid who did the slugging get's punished. Otherwise, it defeats the purpose of anti-bully campaigns schools have been doing in the past decade. You are encouraged to report bullying, but when you do so, you get punished?

I know if my child got slugged in the head and got punished, you better damned well believe I am pressing charges against the school for negligence, and criminal charges against the kid who did the slugging.

It depends on the interpretation of zero tolerance, almost all schools have it. But in my district initiation of the fight always gets a severe punishment, if you throw punches in response to being punched, you will be suspended for the rest of the day.

If the punches at you stop and you continue, then you will get a longer suspension.

And in K-6 you in fact only get suspended if you fight more than once as the initiator.

Zero tolerance varies, weapons are the big no-no as are street drugs.

 

[Dancing David]

deleted

 

[Rasmus]

I think there are. Knocking his attacker down, for example.

But for that you need to know how to do that and you need to able to hit hard enough. And you could still end up killing your opponent, of course.

And once he's down, then what do you do?

I said earlier that I probably couldn't punch someone in the face. So what good would it be to me if that was both a more reliable and safer alternative?

Actually, picking his attacker up carries a lot more risk for him than almost anything else he could have done. It's a very poor strategic choice. But, of course, when you bully people, you assume the risk that they won't be experts in defending themselves so as not to injure you or them. The bully is responsible even if his victim injures themselves in a poor attempt at self-defense.

Indeed.

I agree. It's the defender's choice. The attacker doesn't get to impose a duty on his victim to find the optimum form of self-defense.

Good thing for the attacker, too: The optimum self defense leaves the attacker dead. (Oh, optimum for the attacker you mean? Well, that would be "no self defense whatsoever".)

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

And perhaps you ignored all the posts that have said the same thing you did and did not glory in the fight. And then you continued to use general non-specific language.

Because I had no issue with those posts (Checkmite for example has said much the same as me - he just expressed it better).

If I found out that my children were acting like that bully I would be pissed as hell at my children. I would not say "You got a broken neck because you are stupid", there would be strong consequences and a loss of all privileges for an extended period. Nowing my wife there would also be servive work involved.

Agreed.

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

You did say you had started the fight, even though you didn't throw the first punch in the end.

Yes, I felt responsible for it because I confronted him in an aggressive manner when I could have walked away.

Your longer - snipped - account of what happened doesn't look like you picked the fight as much as that.

It's not an event I'm proud of so perhaps I over-emphasised my role - but I could have walked away. I went back to him rather than him marching up to me.

Why? In the video there is no sign of a prior disagreement or anything. There is no mutual escalations from both sides, no side dares the other to go on or anything of the sort. One kid just walks up to the other and punches him in the face.

I said it wasn't analagous, just that it reminded me of the event because of the differences in size. The other kid in my event was similarly larger than me, seemed similarly (relatively) unaffected by my punches and used his superior size and strength to relatively easily overpower me. Nothing else is similar but that was enough to trigger the memory. Apologies if that was not clear. I was not saying that the lead up was the same as I cannot know what the lead up to this event was (though the reports of reports suggest it was very different - I can't connect to the newspaper article).

There was no point at which the victim here could just have walked away, conceded the point or drop the issue or anything. It is not at all unclear who started the thing and it didn't develop out of a (legitimate or understandable) disagreement.

Accepted.

Would the other kid have known that?
Would the other kid have known what the rest of the group would have done had the other kid won?

No - he'd have had an idea as it was absolutely not the norm for a group to get involved in anyway other than cheering on, but no, he wouldn't know for definite. Which is why I could understand if people still saw it as bullying. It would certainly be intimidating I would think and probably explains and excuses why he punched first. I had backed him into a corner and was basically 'asking for it'. At the time I felt peer pressure had backed me into the same corner but that's a feeble excuse albeit one that may gave me a smidgeon of empathy (that's not to be seen as condoning / excusing in any way) with the bully who may have been similarly encouraged and similarly weak in giving in to it.

Charming. But this in no way resembles what I saw in that video.

I was merely explaining that, in my event, it wasn't the norm for kids to attack as a pack but it was the norm for them to gather excitedly around an impending fight and indeed to encourage it to happen. You could sometimes see that neither protagonist actually wished to go through with it but got pressurised by the baying mob. After a few clumsy blows an excuse was usually found to end matters - or a teacher intervened, attracted by the noise.

No, not charming at all, especially if you're in the middle of it, but it was what happened.