Kent Hovind gets 10 years

Because churches are very good at getting exceptions to the normal rules, at least in the US.

That is an issue most people don't fully understand. A review of the The Act establishing the Overseers of Harvard College shows America's profoundly christian heritage. It points to a much entrenched christian presence.

That christian presence responsible for the foundation of America might be offensive to some yet it's undeniable. It's seen in the very laws that established the rule of law. You can see an example of that in some states constitutions. For example one state has this written into their constitution...

  • " I, A B. do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."
  • And all officers shall also take an oath of office.

Yes, through the good hand of God upon us a nation was founded.

Gene
 
You know, we can go around and around about God's existence, the Gilgamesh tales, and what does and does not constitute a valid college degree, (and no, I sure as hell wouldn't even think of trying for a degree from Patriot, even if they did offer me a doctorate in ministry with the payment of my tuition, and yes, that was several years ago. Life experience, you see), but the central issue remains Kent Hovind's declarations from jail, from his pulpit, and from a variety of locales, that he did not owe the IRS a damned thing.

Just to recap, if you use the roads, if you use the schools, if you like having the police around when laws are broken, or fire departments available when you have an emergency, you owe taxes. That is the price of living in a civilized society. Given that the majority of people seem to enjoy living in a civilized society, we impose upon ourselves taxes.

There's a lot of stuff that Hovind seems to feel he's exempt from, but the realities remain. If I had a choice, I'd let him move into a cave somewhere on a remote island, and just leave his sorry @$$ there. No need for taxes if you present no burden to society. Since that's not a choice, he's now become a greater burden to society as a resident of a federal prison.

This would seem to me to be a negation of what he himself preaches. He's decided that since he's God's man, he has no further obligation to the children of men he's decided he's to lead. Sorry, if he has no accountability to anyone besides God, that makes him a threat, not an ally, because how do we know what he's saying will be the truth? We don't.

Just heard from a friend of mine that a former pastor of mine is now looking for a new church to lead for much the same issue, that he's somehow exempt from basic decency. Long story, but when you start telling the world that you are somehow above them because you have a certificate of ordination, you're going to get shot down. It may not happen fast, but it will happen.
 
How come such a fantasy doctorate is (technically) legal? I assume the laws are more liberal in that regard in the U.S., because using such a homemade degree for example in Germany is more than a misdemeanour, it's a felony, a criminal offence resulting in a hefty fine and/or up to one year in prison.
Maybe someone in Germany should investigate Gillian McKeith, who is, apparently, marketing books in Germany using her (apparently non-accredited) doctorate.
 
That christian presence responsible for the foundation of America might be offensive to some yet it's undeniable.
What about tobacco? The first permanent British colony in North America was Jamestown. Jamestown wasn't about religion, it was about trade and tobacco farming. Jamestown predates Harvard by 35 years.

New York (as New Amsterdam) was a Dutch settlement founded for the explicate purpose of trading with Europe.

Religion is one reason many people came to North America, but many people also came to make a buck. Harvard was founded, as you say, as a religious institution by the government of Massachusetts. Harvard today is not a religious institution nor ran by the government. So any comparisons of Patriot Bible University and Harvard are weak.

It's seen in the very laws that established the rule of law.

You can see an example of that in some states constitutions. For example one state has this written into their constitution...

  • " I, A B. do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."
  • And all officers shall also take an oath of office.
Such a law, if it is still on the books, is unconstitutional and unenforceable. Not by the 1st Amendment, but by Article VI Section 3 of the constitution. That clauses explicitly states that no one in the Federal Government or in any State Government can be required to take a religious test to hold office.

Yes, through the good hand of God upon us a nation was founded.
Founded? No. The US was most assuredly not founded on Christianity. The first settlement was explicitly business, so were other settlements. Yes, there were religious settlement and religious laws. But they were secondary, not primary.

Also, of the two documents that created the US as a political entity, one explicitly excludes religion. The US Constitution excludes religion as a requirement for working in the government and then it was amended to keep Congress from passing any law establishes a national church like England has.

The other document, The Declaration of Independence, mentions God, but not Christ. In fact, the mentions of God seem peculiar from a Christian point of view.

When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
Laws of Nature? Christianity isn't about the Laws of Nature, it's about salvation through Jesus Christ. If a Christian was going to appeal to God, wouldn't he mention Christ? Mentioning nature seems an awful lot like Paganism to me.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
That's not in the Bible. The god of the New Testament doesn't grant anyone any rights. In fact the message of the New Testament seems to be that life sucks, but if you believe then you will go to heaven and be rewarded with a better, eternal life. And the Old Testament? The Old Testament is more about telling people how to live their life. The idea of human rights is noticeably lacking in the 10 Commandments.

The truth is that the founding fathers weren't, on the whole, Christian. They were Deists. Deists wrote the Declaration of Independence and US Constitution, not Christians.

We are not a Christian nation. Yes, many people believe in a god, but they don't necessarily believe in Christ. Indeed, many people believe in God, but not in religion. I've noticed a tenancy for Christians to assume any discussion of a god, means their god. This is simply not true, as an examination of the beliefs of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, or Ben Franklin will bear out.
 
That is an issue most people don't fully understand. A review of the The Act establishing the Overseers of Harvard College shows America's profoundly christian heritage. It points to a much entrenched christian presence.

That christian presence responsible for the foundation of America might be offensive to some yet it's undeniable. It's seen in the very laws that established the rule of law. You can see an example of that in some states constitutions. For example one state has this written into their constitution...

...
Yes, through the good hand of God upon us a nation was founded.

Gene

Ok, now we are getting to why you throwing irrationalism around.

You just conflated the founding of Harvard with the founding of the United States. Over a hundred year difference; Harvard was founded by Christian settlers in 1636 and the USA in 1787. Feel free to name one university in the western world in the 1600s that WAS NOT religious.

Moreover, be sure to read about the religious backgrounds of the people who founded the United States and all of its SECULAR laws.

A good starting point is Thomas Jefferson: Author of America (Eminent Lives) by Christopher Hitchens.

Lastly, this has nothing to do with businesses and schools not accepting Patriot University "degrees."
 
Maybe someone in Germany should investigate Gillian McKeith, who is, apparently, marketing books in Germany using her (apparently non-accredited) doctorate.

Thanks for that information. I did two hours of research, and what I found is that without authorisation from a German federal state she is required to use her degree in the original notation and language, along with naming the university.

Since a new law that was passed a few years ago, certain academic degrees and titles from European countries and the U.S. can be used without further authorisation, but only if these degrees are from acknowledged universities. Which, apparently, is not the case with McKeith.

I'll try to find out more tomorrow, or maybe an e-mail to the german medical association might shed light on this issue, since her book is clearly health-related.
 
Hello Fanboy,

I enjoyed reading your post. I particularly enjoyed the part were you made this point..
Founded? No. The US was most assuredly not founded on Christianity.
...then argued it. That was priceless.

Gene
 
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Well then, lets try this again

...then argued against it. That was priceless.
Well then allow me to make up for it.

;)

Sense the old approach was such a dismal failure, I'll try another one.

Lets go back in time to the Continental Congress. They have just decided to draft a document stating separating themselves and their constituents from England. If their goal is to establish a Christian Nation, then it should do a few things:

  • It should explicitly mention Christ.
  • There should Biblical references, especially citing the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Letter of Paul.
  • Being well learned, allusions should be made comparing England with Babylon or Rome prior to it's fall.
  • Mentions of God should be persistent.
  • King George should be charged with sin, or causing others to sin.
  • England, The King, or Parliament should be declared unholy.
Instead three deists write the document. There is no mention of christ, there are no Biblical reference of any kind, no comparison of England to any of the oppressors of the Jews or Christians in the Bible, only one use of the word God (and one use of the word Creator to mean God), sin goes unmentioned, and there are no mentions of the crown or English government being unholy.

The Declaration of Independence is a very straight forward listing of charges. The states had specific charges, and they listed them. There is zero evidence that the God mentioned in the Declaration is the God of Abraham.

If the Constitutional Convention had wanted to establish a Christian nation, they would have done a few things:
  • They would have required a religious test to hold office.
  • They would have mentioned God in the Preamble.
  • The prescribed oath for office would have required a mention of God.
  • Congress would have been given authority to establish a Church.
  • The various branches of government would have been given ecclesiastical power.
Again, we find the opposite. No mention of any God at all. All religion (not just Christianity) is excluded from testing. Congress cannot abridge the practicing of any religion, and it cannot establish any religion. The word used was religion, not Christianity.

Christianity is more than just a belief in God. It is a set of beliefs about a man who according to myth, when executed for his teachings, refused to harm his torturers despite having all the power in the Universe to do so. People disagree on the technicalities, but I feel that it is important to understand that Christianity has a set of beliefs that one must adhere to call themselves Christian.

When theists talk about deities, they mean their specific deity or deities, not the deities of others who might want to see their own god reflected back at them.
 
fanboy,

Sense the old approach was such a dismal failure, I'll try another one.

You're right about 'the old approach'. I have heard most of your points before. I did enjoy rereading them. I inadvertently edited my post before you posted.

Although I never made the point America was founded on christianity it is good to see the case made it wasn't. Food for thought.

Gene
 
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fanboy,

...
Lets go back in time to the Continental Congress. ...

We could take a brief foray back there but instead of speculating what it may or may not have been if this or that weren't the case we could just look at some of the language of the day.

In one particular document I found this...

And, as if all this were insufficient to stake their Thirst of Blood, the Blood of Brothers, of unoffending Brothers, they have excited the Indians against us; and a General, who calls himself a Christian, a Follower of the merciful Jesus, hath dared to proclaim to all the World his Intention of letting loose against us whose Hosts of Savages

The suggestion of congress at the end of all that was...

RESOLVED,
THAT it be recommended to Ministers of the Gospel, of all Denominations, to read, or cause to be read, immediately after divine Service, the above Address to the Inhabitants of the United States of America, in their respective Churches and Chapels, and other Places of religious Worship.

That was in the year of our Lord, Jesus Christ, 1778

There is plenty of evidence supporting a pronounced christian presence in the new world; their part in the foundation of America is undeniable.

Gene
 
Er, who said there was zero Christian presence at the founding of the US? Well done, you've found a (straw) Christian man. I'd be quite surprised if there were no Christians in-country at the time! Especially in the (traditionally conservative) armed forces.

The point, unless I've missed it, was that the US was not founded as a Christian country but rather as a secular country with separation of religion and government. Also that the founding fathers were Deists, not Christians. And that point still stands, doesn't it? All that "one nation under (implied Abrahamic) God" stuff was added in the '50s as has been said.
 
fanboy,
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That's not in the Bible.
The emboldened text bears a striking resemblance to this from the new testament....
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Someone that graduated from a seminary would have been aware of that. I'm not saying that was their inspiration but the two phrases are similar.

Gene
 
fanboy,



We could take a brief foray back there but instead of speculating what it may or may not have been if this or that weren't the case we could just look at some of the language of the day.

In one particular document I found this...



The suggestion of congress at the end of all that was...



That was in the year of our Lord, Jesus Christ, 1778

There is plenty of evidence supporting a pronounced Christian presence in the new world; their part in the foundation of America is undeniable.

Gene

Even if you believe this nation was founded upon Christianity, it doen't mean cherry picking scarce documents hold any water.

Greece was founded upon Greek Gods but this no longer reflects their current belief system or proves their Greek gods exists or should exist.

Christianity will fail eventually and be replaced by another flavor-of-the-millennia type religion and people will look back at the stories of Jesus and Mohamed being like those about Zeus or Thor of our time.

All believers of any faith follow the ritualistic bandwagons of meaningless revelations and irrational thought. Usually dealing with death, birth and the end of time, which normally includes some judge that gives justice to those who received none during life. The reason I believe this is because everyone fears death in one way or another and it appeases some people to think there is something more after death because they have only been experiencing something rather than nothing and the void of one's own life is unfathomable.

People want to think their lives have some sort of meaning and choose to pick the most ridiculous types of meanings ever! Everyone wants to feel special whether you are Christian wanting to be the most Christ like or atheist wanting to be the most A-theist. I don't think anyone is exempt from wanting to be special in one way or another. That is what drives us to learn facts or beliefs, recognize reality from fantasy, creating fantasy from reality and so on.

It is all just so tiring sometimes, especially when it is affecting me.
 
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Great, Gene, yet another silly derail from you. This time, to prove that there were christians in the US before the Revolution. What your point is and what relevance it has to all of us being hypocrites is beyond me.

Let's get back to that. Why are we hypocrites because a conman who happens to be christian has gone to jail and we are happy for it? Please get back to the point.
 
Ceritus,

Even if you believe this nation was founded upon Christianity, it doen't mean cherry picking scarce documents hold any water.

Greece was founded upon Greek Gods but this no longer reflects their current belief system or proves their Greek gods exists or should exist.

I am cherry picking from congressional record. But to your point of 'this nation was founded upon christianity' I never made that point. That was fanboy's point.

To your point about greece; what it is today is no point about what it was or what its foundation was. By foundation I mean how it began. You're comparing two different points in time.

Gene
 
fanboy,

My point is that the population of the colonies was decidedly christian. John Jay had this opinion...
With equal pleasure I have as often taken notice that Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people--a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government...
...This country and this people seem to have been made for each other, and it appears as if it was the design of Providence, that an inheritance so proper and convenient for a band of brethren, united to each other by the strongest ties, should never be split into a number of unsocial, jealous, and alien sovereignties.

...about the population of the day. Since he was closer in time to the actual events I think he has the more viable opinion.

Gene
 
Quotations from Benjamin Franklin

I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absented myself from Christian assemblies. - Benjamin Franklin, Toward The Mystery.

Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough deist. - Benjamin Franklin, Autobiography

I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it. - Benjamin Franklin, from Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion, 1728

The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason. - Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard, 1758

Quotations from George Washington

If they are good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa or Europe; they may be Mahometans, Jews, Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists.... - George Washington, to Tench Tighman, March 24, 1784, when asked what type of workman to get for Mount Vernon, from "The Washington papers" edited by Saul Padover

I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny. - George Washington, to United Baptists Churches of Virginia, May, 1789 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover]

Quotations from Thomas Jefferson

The Christian god can be easily pictured as virtually the same as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of the people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites. - Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to his nephew, Peter Carr

Difference of opinion is advantageous is religion. The several sects perform the office of a censor morum over each other. Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support rogeury and error all over the earth. - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia (1781-1785)

I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Woods

I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State. - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. - Thomas Jefferson, speech to Virginia House of Delegates, November, 1776
Read the Bible as you would Livy or Tacitus. For example, in the book of Joshua we are told the sun stood still for several hours. Were we to read that fact in Livy or Tacitus we should class it with their showers of blood, speaking of their statues, beasts, etc. But it is said that the writer of that book was inspired. Examine, therefore, candidly, what evidence there is of his having been inspired. The pretension is entitled to your inquiry, because millions believe it. On the other hand, you are astronomer enough to know how contrary it is to the law of nature - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787, in Works, Vol.ii., p. 217

...If we did a good act merely from the love of God and a belief that is pleasing to him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? It is idle to say, as some do, that no such thing exists [...] Diderot, D'Alembert, D'Holbach, Condorcet are known to have been among the most virtuous of men. Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than love of God. - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohametan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination. - Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom;

Reading, reflection and time have convinced me that the interests of society require the observation of those moral precepts only in which all religions agree (for all forbid us to steal, murder, plunder, or bear false witness), and that we should not intermeddle with the particular dogmas in which all religions differ, and which are totally unconnected with morality. - Thomas Jefferson to James Fishback, 1809

Our Constitution... has not left the religion of its citizens under the power of its public functionaries, were it possible that any of these should consider a conquest over the conscience of men either attainable or applicable to any desirable purpose. - Thomas Jefferson: Reply to New London Methodists, 1809

It is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children. It is ordinarily lawful (or temporarily lawful) to kill calves or lambs; they may, therefore, be religiously sacrificed. But if the good of the State required a temporary suspension of killing lambs, as during a siege, sacrifices of them may then be rightfully suspended also. This is the true extent of toleration. - Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers, 1:547

I may grow rich by an art I am compelled to follow; I may recover health by medicines I am compelled to take against my own judgment; but I cannot be saved by a worship I disbelieve and abhor. - Thomas Jefferson

Quotations from John Adams

Tom, had you and I been 40 days with Moses, and beheld the great God, and even if God himself had tried to tell us that three was one ... and one equals three, you and I would never have believed it. We would never fall victims to such lies. --- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days? - John Adams

The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. - John Adams
This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it. - John Adams

Quotations from James Madison

There remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Gov' & Religion neither can be duly supported: Such indeed is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded agst.. And in a Gov' of opinion, like ours, the only effectual guard must be found in the soundness and stability of the general opinion on the subject. Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Gov will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together. - James Madison; Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, The Writings of James Madison, Gaillard Hunt

It was the Universal opinion of the Century preceding the last, that Civil Government could not stand without the prop of a religious establishment; and that the Christian religion itself, would perish if not supported by the legal provision for its clergy. The experience of Virginia conspiciously corroboates the disproof of both opinions. The Civil Government, tho' bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success; whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the Church from the State. - James Madison, as quoted in Robert L. Maddox: Separation of Church and State; Guarantor of Religious Freeedom

Whilst we assert for ourselves a freedom to embrace, to profess and observe the Religion which we believe to be of divine origin, we cannot deny equal freedom to those whose minds have not yet yielded to the evidence which has convinced us. If this freedom be abused, it is an offense against God, not against man:To God, therefore, not to man, must an account of it be rendered. - James Madison, according to Leonard W. Levy, Treason Against God: A History of the Offense of Blasphemy, New York: Schocken Books, 1981, p. xii.

Quotations from Thomas Paine

Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by attaching it to this filthy book (the Bible). - Thomas Paine

It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible. - Thomas Paine

---

And let's not forget the good old Treaty of Tripoli.

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; … no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Written in 1797, ratified by the Senate, and signed by President John Adams.
 
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fanboy,



We could take a brief foray back there but instead of speculating what it may or may not have been if this or that weren't the case we could just look at some of the language of the day.

In one particular document I found this...



The suggestion of congress at the end of all that was...



That was in the year of our Lord, Jesus Christ, 1778

There is plenty of evidence supporting a pronounced christian presence in the new world; their part in the foundation of America is undeniable.
Yes, that was a resolution made during the Constitutional Convention of the Continental Congress, but as such, it historically interesting, but in no way a part of the Constitution or any basis of our government. It just indicates that there were some religious people in the Continental Congress.
 

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