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Karate tricks

thaiboxerken said:
How would you explain that one elderly man could push over over 60 black belt, well coordinated students, lined up in a row, with one hand?
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If they were not standing "glued together" (chest to back, chest to back), it would be the domino effect. If they were, I would assume a collaboration of tricksters.

As for tiles: When the wind blows, tiles are lifted from the roofs and smashed to pieces on the pavement. Try dropping a rock from the roof, and you get a hole in the ground.
 
One thing to take into account when viewing these demonstrations is "who is participating?"

If the "master" is surrounded by his own students, one can readily suspect collaboration, or at least the fact that they are probably true believers who are doing what's expected of them.

Much the same thing happens in religious revivals and tent shows. Individuals who are "slain by the spirit" ( a simple tap on the forehead) fall to the floor quite convincingly (or into the arms of helpers-wouldn't want a lawsuit) not only because they believe, but because it's expected behaviour.
 
It's amazing how this believer in Ki refuses to acknowledge the mundane explanations for the tricks he's seen.

Then again, I guess believers of anything paranormal aren't all that different.
 
thaiboxerken said:
It's amazing how this believer in Ki refuses to acknowledge the mundane explanations for the tricks he's seen.
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Maybe not.

Ki or Qui or whatever it is is a nice short word. And if someone asks you for a scientific-sounding explanation, you can always say "energy."

Physics has a a lot more words. There's energy and work and force and torque and linear and angular momentum and kinetic energy versus various kinds of potential energy. Also, in materials science there's tensile strength and compressive strength and stress and strain and torsion and slip and crystal lattices and adhesion and cohesion and static friction and moving friction and turbulence and all sorts of other whatnot.

If you had a tiny little brain that could only keep track of so much, which would you pick?
 
You're not entirely correct. The Ki people have used all of those words the psychics use. They also keep changing the definition of Ki, just like psychics do.. from energy, to body mechanics, to understanding of the body, to understanding of the spirit.. etc.
 
Hehhe.. they banned me. Said that I was too insultive and eluded to profane language...by posting things like STFU and BS.

Oh well. They are stupid karate people.
 
During my stint with martial arts, I experienced the "go along with the sensei" phenomenon many times. Dojo-decorum forbids any contradiction of the sensei, and you make an implicit pledge to check your own brain and credibility at the door.

The demonstrations of chi feats was a joke. The whole "rooting" demonstration in which the humongous sensei "pretends" he can't pick you up when "focus on making yourself heavy" was the most obvious. Then there were the magic "meridian touches" for incapacitating an opponent with 6" swipe of the finger down the back of his neck. Students would fall over themselves to be the "victim" for the sensei's demonstration of that one --- and give their full cooperation.

Still, BS aside, there were some practical self-defense concepts thrown in, and overall the training (between eye-rolls) was worthwhile.
 
Yep, among all the bullshido in martial arts, there are some actually useful concepts and approaches. I am one to challenge authority, and I've told a few instructors how I felt about chi.
 
We had a hilarious article written by one of our more 'antagonistic' members over at Bullshido about James Lacy...

The guy claims to be able to teach "Cancer Palm" from what I've read.

I'll have to dig it up. It's mean, and not exactly up to journalistic standards, but pretty funny in context.
 
Since I own the copyright on this, I'm just going to paste it here.

I think the author has considerately changed the spelling of several words to bypass profanity filters. Not that he needed to on Bullshido, because we don't recognize the irrational concept of such a thing as a "bad" word.

It apparently never got carried over from the old version of our site:

Jim Lacy

This guy has been on my hit list for quite awhile boys and girls. I had always knew that he had, in my own humble opinions, views and beliefs about his martial art that I would call "fukking crazy" but in the 11/02 Black Belt Magazine he really talks about the "more interesting" side of his art.

Jim Lacy is a Grandmaster of Five Elder Monk Mew Hing's 18 Daoist Palm system. This basically means that Jim Lacy would probably try and convince you that he could fly if his Chi was strong enough and he had enough Dit Da Jow. Lacy uses his Iron Palm to perform the very impressive act of breaking coconuts with hsi bare hands. Im not sure what exactly the value of destroying food IS in the martial arts world but whatever it is, Lacy has got in up his Ying Yang. Good Old Grandmaster Jim looks like a weird hybrid of a Hell's Angel and a Shaolin Monk. Big bushy beard, odd ball tattoos, and in one picture a long black robe. If he and Jim Arvanitus ever had a kid it would look like the Elephant Man.

In his article for Black Belt Grandmaster Jim Lacy (or just Jimmy Palms if you want to feel like you know him) says ALOT of stupid shiit. He treats readers to a vast wealth of knowledge about such things as "Tibetian lama burning palm":


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To prove proficiency, up to nine people could be lined up belly-to-back. The master could leave a complete hand print on any one of them without harming the others. In modern times this is considered too dangerous to demonstrate.
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Believe it or not, this maniac is serious.

During his article he also mentions how his instructor used "shaky/vibrating palm" to "...move liquid in my stomach from a half foot away." He also babbles about "Springy Palm" which can cause cancer. He never mentions if there is an H.I.V. palm. He probably keeps all the GOOD STUFF for himself. I'd hate to go up against a guy with H.I.V. palm. And even shaking HANDS with a pratitioner of Hairy Palm would be traumatic.

Pyrokenesis anyone? Lacy also claims that practitioners of the "Fire Palm" can cause substances to ignite. He says that he has seen a video of his former teacher igniting a small peice of paper.


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If your lucky and dilligent enough to spend at least a few hours every day training at the same time, you might learn how to do it in 10 years. However, being able to do it is said to require some sexual abstinence-not much. It also requires a strict diet and certain herbal liniment preperations like mountain yam to be rubbed all over your body to keep you from overheating.
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Its the year 2002 and there is someone NOT in a mental institution which believes that you can make yourself into a fukking flamethrower. Do people really believe this shiit? They MUST because the guy sells videos and books on all of this crap. Some of you may or may not know a guy by the name of Wickersnatch from ADCC Forum. If you know him already then you KNOW that he would want to pork Jim Lacy in the worst way. This guy is RIGHT up his alley. He could use the vibrationg palm on him.

Lacy wrote an article about Grappling asking how a Grappler could withstand a blow that

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.... cracked his skull or severely damaged his central nervous system or even ruptured a vital organ? There is no defense to this type of technique, and that is why you don’t see it happening in the NHB competitions.
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He also says that there are many fighters who could accomplish this. Of COURSE there is Jim! Has anyone called the fukking asylum yet? I think our ol' boy Jim needs a visit from the men in the white coats. Lets break this down a bit. This guy belives, amongst ALOT of other nonesense, that a person can:

1. Cause Cancer by touching you.

2. Shoot his palm strike through 6 fukking people and hurt only YOU.

3. Make the chili dog you had for lunch jump around in your stomach from half a foot away.

4. Turn a man into the fukking Firestarter.


All of this is what makes me want to label Jim Lacy a fruitcake. If you want to read more about him go to www.ironpalm.com. Its like browsing thru the martial arts version of an old time freak show. Theres more wacky shiit in that site than nearly any other I've seen. And thats saying alot. I can't believe that people like this are allowed to roam the street with the rest of us. If I tell you I can fly, or that I'm the Pope, I would get locked away. THIS nut OPENLY says that people can have fire super powers and that certain strikes can cause cancer and people PAY him for his knowledge!

Amazing.

The next time someone tells you Kung Fu is a realistic art send them to Jim Lacy's site. They'll thank you later for the comedy.
 
Re: Re: Karate tricks

jzs said:
There is also the related feat of a taijiquan person demonstrating his/her ability to not be pushed over; rooting, or just having a good stance in taijiquan. For example, see the "Lining up for the grand push" photo at http://www.wuweitaichi.com/photo-picnic.php.
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I can just imagine if these guys went to leave and discovered one of their cars stuck in some mud. "We'll have to push it out - everybody line up."
 
There's a fairly-well documented tale ( I think it was on some Asian TV station) of Bruce Lee confronting one of these "rooted stance" types.
He invited Lee to push him over, and Lee simply knocked him out...
 
Folks would do well to study up on the history of China, particularly the reputation of the Southern Chinese for extreme 'salesmanship', circus trickery, and taking advantage of the gullible and superstitious. It isn't just a family and cultural tradition, it is a point of honor to be good at such things.

And guess which part of China was responsible for most of the interaction with the West in things like martial arts, etc?

Nor are the other Asian societies blameless either.

The Okinawans deliberately sent the Japanese a childrens version of their art, which they promptly turned into 'Karate', and peddled to the Americans and let the Koreans make an even more defective copy of, as TKD.

And let us not forget Hollywood.
Dog breeders are well aware that the kiss of death for the integrity and health of any breed is to be featured in a movie, resulting in huge demand, resulting in unscrupulous breeding...
And Hollywood has the same effect on martial arts...whatever the flavor of the month is, your local strip mall school is sure to add that to the list of styles taught by the 30 year old 'master'.


Basically there are a very limited number of effective ways to hit someone, to kick properly and safely, to twist someone's arm and so forth...but there are myriad ways to dress that up into a profitable package.

When one considers the millions of people who pay money to get that martial arts 'package', it would be good to remember the whole of the 'Sucker born every minute' saying...."And two to take him".
(Another useful item would be to research the meaning of the phrase 'eat bitter'.)
 
crimresearch said:


The Okinawans deliberately sent the Japanese a childrens version of their art, which they promptly turned into 'Karate'
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This statement conflicts with what I've heard in Okinawan martial arts schools (Isshin-ryu and Shuri-ryu, with a dash of Shotokan) --- do you have any sources I could view? I know there was no love lost between the Japanese and the Okinawans for a long period of their history, but I hadn't heard of any organized plan to feed them a whopper while holding the "truth" back from them.

IIRC, Gichin Funakoshi moved to Japan in the 1920's, with the stated purpose of bringing the essence of Okinawan martial arts to the Japanese people. Again, IIRC, he says about as much in his autobiography (which I don't have unpacked at present, so I can't verify).

I have heard a lot of conflicting stories about "the early days", when various Okinawan masters interacted with the "outside world", but all of them seem to indicate total generousity in teaching the "heart" of Okinawan Karate-do to anyone sincere about learning. If you have any more authoritative records, I'd like to learn more.
 
Well, the simplest way would be to compare the forms and particularly the applications from the original Okinawan styles such as Naha-Te and Suri-Te with Shotokan. They are as different as night and day.

(And you can make a similar comparison of the older Korean poomse forms with the Shotokan versions).

The Japanese/modern full rotation of the fist, inclusion of blocks, stiff thrusting high kicks, and kihon bunkai are all part of an evidently changed curriculum.

Funakoshi's story seems to be that he was changing the system to give the Japanese something in which they could focus on traditional Japanese values...

The Japanese claim that Funakoshi improved upon the old stuff, and there are Okinawans who claim that there was a meeting of high ranking instructors before Funakoshi left, during which he was told not to teach 'oyo' bunkai...only kihon, kata and later kumite..all childrens' activities, similar to 'boffer' weapons today.

I sold off hundreds of martial arts books a few years ago, and don't have the references in front of me...check the Uechi forums, someone over there probably keeps up with those things.
 
Talking about that "kiss of death" phenomenon....I recall back when "Kung Fu" hit the TV with an oh-so-inscrutable David Carridine doing the Paladin bit...

Dozens of "karate" instructors sent off to Paladin press for a couple of kung fu books and hung out shingles as Shaolin (or whatever of some 200 styles) schools.

Same thing happened with the Ninja craze.

Tis' kind of interesting being more of an overall observer rather than a particpant. Martial arts styles seem to generally grow up in a rather isolated environment, frequently rather secret. (as in the above Okinawan case, where the Okinawans were denied weapons by the occupying feudal Japanese.)

It's only when these styles began to bump up against one another (as it were) that they change and adapt. I recall the beginnings of "full contact" Karate here in the states, with participants manfully trying to use the classic hand techniques they'd been studying for so many years.
It rapidly became apparent that those lovely fully-chambered punches were just too inefficient in the ring, and the more successful fighters began to use Western boxing techniques.
(thus learning a lesson, perhaps, from Savate, which preceded them by many years.)
In fairly short order, "kickboxing" was the name of the game, and even the rather stodgy TKD guys were teaching their students some boxing technique.
Then along comes the UFC, and suddenly grappling is the hot item..... And so it goes.
 
Re: Re: Karate tricks

jzs said:
It seems to me that the taijiquan person is simply resisting the push of the first person, possibly the second, but not the rest. They seem to think, perhaps, that the forces of all the people pushing are additive, so that by the time the push travels to the practicioner, the force is huge! Realistically, however, and I'm not knowledgeable in physics, I'd bet all the forces get dissapated, except the force of the person closest to the practicioner.
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If not, then the person closest has the force of fifty-nine people pushing on him one way, and a guy with the strength of sixty people pushing the other way. So who's the real miracle worker here?

Let's see the tajiquan person get his head down and push back a rugby scrum. Solo.
 
Re: Re: Re: Karate tricks

Dr Adequate said:
Let's see the tajiquan person get his head down and push back a rugby scrum. Solo.
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Well put.
 
I tried this with some of my students years back and confirmed my suspicions. Try lining up to push a wall - or better as we did the horizontal iron rail of a fence. try being the second or third guy and feel how much struggling your stabilising muscles have to do - the ones that hold your joints in place etc. While these are struggling they act as brakes on the main muscles becuase we're designed not to overstress those muscles - one reason that people who use over-isolating nautilus style equipment can't lift anything like the same weight free style. As someone once said, if you want to push start a car do you go in a line or go across the car?

Years back a guy called Bill Knittle (memory?) used to post good stuff about how a lot of these tricks were achieved. Baking board as KL said - once he saw a board that crumbled when a guy lined up on because it was so overbaked. Ice blocks loaded with salt so they are more fragile - apparently they also look more spectacular.
 
I was engaged in a few martial arts classes when I was somewhat younger.

The first was a Mang Chuan Kung Fu school. I loved the style, and it was interesting to be the only Chinese stylists at tournaments dominated mostly by Japanese styles. I ultimately had to quit for two reasons...

1. My Sifu, an American who had studied under a chinese instructor, was a fine instructor of the techniques themselves, but was quite racist if you happened to speak to him outside of his school. That cost me respect for him, and it just doesn't work to study under someone you don't respect.

2. The cost behame prohibitive.

This class said much about what application of "Chi" could do, and I heard many anecdotes but saw little in practice. But even without amazing Chi demonstrations, it was a beautiful style.

Later I wound up in a group of students studying Nin-Po (something like Ninjitsu that was not quite the same in a subtle way that eludes my memory)... the instructor's name was David Held, taught a small group out of his home, and I would love to find him again for my kids. He taught simple, practical techniques with moves and countermoves as elegant as a chess game. He promised nothing supernatural, gave sound advice about handling opponents with guns, and was very good with kids.
 
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