Jordan Peterson's all-meat diet

[casebro]

Also your kidneys are going to have a really hard time coping with all that protein.

No. Kidneys don't breakdown protein, livers do.

They used to recommend low protein diets for those with kidney disease, but they found out it didn't actually help. But protein starvation prevented the kidneys from passing protein. Passing protein is a symptom of kidney disease, NOT a cause.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Vegetables.

Like these?

Here's what fruits and vegetables looked like before we domesticated them

Carrots anyone?

 

[Marcus]

"meat" in general is not a source of vitamin C. Some specific meats are and might have worked for ancient humans. However, there are also a lot of green things that we wouldn't consider edible now that were probably consumed by ancient humans.

One mistake the early Arctic explorers made was not following the Inuit custom of eating in winter raw seal meat, whale blubber, and especially raw seal liver, all of which are good sources of vitamin C, unless you cook them.



This is more of a far north adaption though, most people have plants available year round.

 

[Marcus]

No. Kidneys don't breakdown protein, livers do.

They used to recommend low protein diets for those with kidney disease, but they found out it didn't actually help. But protein starvation prevented the kidneys from passing protein. Passing protein is a symptom of kidney disease, NOT a cause.

People with CKD (chronic kidney disease) walk a fine line. You can't eat too much protein or too little. If you get to stage 4, your doctor will tell you exactly how many grams of protein you are allowed and it is not a lot, you won't be enjoying any 14 oz ribeyes.

 

[casebro]

People with CKD (chronic kidney disease) walk a fine line. You can't eat too much protein or too little. If you get to stage 4, your doctor will tell you exactly how many grams of protein you are allowed and it is not a lot, you won't be enjoying any 14 oz ribeyes.

Stage 3 here. No mention of protein as the cause or the fix..

 

[Marcus]

Stage 3 here. No mention of protein as the cause or the fix..

Protein doesn't usually cause CKD, usually it's diabetes. It's lack doesn't fix it either, but too much can make the damage worse. I'm surprised your nephrologist hasn't talked to you about this.



Here is a bit from PubMed:




Purpose of review: High-protein intake may lead to increased intraglomerular pressure and glomerular hyperfiltration. This can cause damage to glomerular structure leading to or aggravating chronic kidney disease (CKD). Hence, a low-protein diet (LPD) of 0.6-0.8 g/kg/day is often recommended for the management of CKD. We reviewed the effect of protein intake on incidence and progression of CKD and the role of LPD in the CKD management.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27801685/

 

[Orphia Nay]

What do you suggest was the main source of vitamin C for pre-agriculture humans?

Fruit and greens.

Vegetables.

Indeed.

e.g. Bush tucker.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_tucker


"The animals of Australia are attention-grabbers. It’s no surprise that when people think of Australia, the kangaroo comes to mind. Then you have the postcard-worthy delights of the wombat, the platypus, and the quokka.

"Our plants get a little less attention. Yet, beautiful, fragrant, and distinctive native plants dot the Australian countryside. They look, smell and even taste completely unique. The ways in which they have adapted to the rigours of the diverse landscape they evolved in are fascinating."

- https://www.medibank.com.au/livebet...cious-native-australian-foods-to-get-to-know/

 

[casebro]

Protein doesn't usually cause CKD, usually it's diabetes. It's lack doesn't fix it either, but too much can make the damage worse. I'm surprised your nephrologist hasn't talked to you about this.



Here is a bit from PubMed:




Purpose of review: High-protein intake may lead to increased intraglomerular pressure and glomerular hyperfiltration. This can cause damage to glomerular structure leading to or aggravating chronic kidney disease (CKD). Hence, a low-protein diet (LPD) of 0.6-0.8 g/kg/day is often recommended for the management of CKD. We reviewed the effect of protein intake on incidence and progression of CKD and the role of LPD in the CKD management.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27801685/

No data in your abstract. But this has a table 1 : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5962279/ BOTTOM LINE:

eGFR increased in HP group especially among CKD stage III patients.

The higher the eGFR the better. Other (bad?) metabolites showed insignificant increases.

 

[catsmate]

Like these?

Here's what fruits and vegetables looked like before we domesticated them

Carrots anyone?

Is that somehow relevant to this discussion?

 

[Oystein]

...
Another example is the south African bushmen
For the Koisan they use over 150 wild plant species for food, but the main ones are:...

Jared Diamond, in "Guns, Germs and Steel", narrates how indigenous New Guineans have distinct words for a thousand different plants that are part of everyone's vocabulary, and that most everybody also knows something useful about each of those plants - like which have which edible parts, and which to avoid, and how to make inedible plants edible.

This suggests that hunter-gatherer societies everywhere have far more diet options than most "civilized" people can appreciate.

The more different organisms you sample and include in your diet, the better your chance all essential substances will be included somewhere.
And that is the problem with any diet that severely limits the number of organisms you eat as an omnivore: I can believe that a "paleo diet" modeled on what an Ice Age European might have eaten - 70% animals of all kinds, 30% plant parts, each as you can find them during the course of the year - is sustainable. That would include dozens^[*] of species of animals (mammals, insects, fish, birds, worms, ...) and hundreds of species of plants. But Peterson's "beef only"? No way!

---
^[*] "Dozens" may be a severe undercount: I once compiled a list of all the different animal species I have eaten on purpose in my life time, and the result was in the 80s - more than half of which living in water. This includes thus far zero insects, only one species of amphibians, no more than three species of reptiles. I would think that hunter-gatherers will sample a lot more than I have and easily include more than 100 species of animals in their diet each year.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

This suggests that hunter-gatherer societies everywhere have far more diet options than most "civilized" people can appreciate.

I definitely agree with this..

Is that somehow relevant to this discussion?

Only in the sense that " eat your fruit and vegetables " didn't quite mean 100,000 years ago ( or even 100, for that matter ) what it means today..

 

[angrysoba]

Only in the sense that " eat your fruit and vegetables " didn't quite mean 100,000 years ago ( or even 100, for that matter ) what it means today..

Indeed, but that also goes for meat as well.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Indeed...

 

[abaddon]

I was really hoping a_unique_person would give us their answer..

They seemed to be of the opinion that an animal sourced diet would be deficient in vitamin C..

Poison chalice. That I know of, there are two species on the planet that cannot make there own Vit C. Humans being one of them.

Thus we must get it elsewhere. That means hunting. Why did humans evolve out of the need to produce their own Vit C? Nobody knows. That is what is interesting about such a question.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

Many species can't make their own Vitamin C. It's practically the entire clade of Primates for example.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Why did humans evolve out of the need to produce their own Vit C? Nobody knows.

There are some theories..

Glut-1 explains the evolutionary advantage of the loss of endogenous vitamin C-synthesis: The electron transfer hypothesis

We propose that the transport of vitamin C increases an intracellular electron pool, which transfers electrons from intracellular ascorbate to extracellular substances like ascorbyl free radical or DHA, resulting in 100-fold smaller daily requirement of this essential redox sensitive micronutrient. This would be an advantage during seasonal changes of the availability from food and may be the key for the survival of individuals without vitamin C biosynthesis.

 

[catsmate]

Only in the sense that " eat your fruit and vegetables " didn't quite mean 100,000 years ago ( or even 100, for that matter ) what it means today..

Yes fruits and vegetables have changed, so what?

Poison chalice. That I know of, there are two species on the planet that cannot make there own Vit C. Humans being one of them.

Many species can't make their own Vitamin C. It's practically the entire clade of Primates for example.

Primates are a small category, though fruit bats and guinea pigs also need to consume ascorbic acid. However the vast majority of animals can biosynthesise it.

Thus we must get it elsewhere. That means hunting. Why did humans evolve out of the need to produce their own Vit C? Nobody knows. That is what is interesting about such a question.

Gathering technically. But in the "hunter/gatherer" model the 'gathering' provided the vast majority of calories and nutrients anyway.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

Primates are a small category, though fruit bats and guinea pigs also need to consume ascorbic acid. However the vast majority of animals can biosynthesise it.

Yes, of course. But you read what I was responding to, right? Unless "primates" is such small category that it's a negative number there are lot more than two species that can't synthesize Vitamin C. The bats that have their Vitamin C related issues aren't just a single species either. Not all bats have been studied for that but it appears to be dozen maybe hundreds of species of bat that share the issue.

I wouldn't dwell on this issue except for the fact that it's one of many facts that creationists mangle. The relevant points here for that are that these defects are shared within clades and the each clade has a distinct defect. BTW it's at least a few more clades than have been mentioned in this thread.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

..the 'gathering' provided the vast majority of calories and nutrients anyway.

Tha " gathering " included the gathering of carcasses..

Whole animal sources are far more 'nutrient' dense than plants by many factors.

Even more so than the plants that were available 100,000 years ago.

 

[casebro]

We have evolved as the smartest animals. We are omnivores. Coincidence?

Chicken/egg? Lots of lower animals are omnivorous. Hogs, canines, and the predecessor to all the smartest animals, rats.

Though with today's knowledge, biases of mega-nutrients is less important. But not whole hog. Vegans need iron and Bs, carnivores need some stuff too- inorganics like sodium nitrates?

Probably, those who want an extreme diet need to do more scavenging, that is one food group totally ignored. Fermented foods any one? I bet your throw out sour milk, but then take probiotics.