John Edward - psychic or what?

[batvette]

Batvette,

I will again use your analogy of someone who has great strength in an emergency, but would never be able to compete in the Olympics. I really like it because it is an effective metaphor for what we are discussing.

dlorde offered an explanation for how such things can happen. That explanation sounds plausible, but we can't really know because no one's there to test the hypothesis during the emergency situation.

But what we must also fold into the analogy is the fact that we do actually have real Olympians who compete every four years and the perform feats of strength, agility and speed that have never been recorded before. World records are broken all the time at the Olympics and at other competitions in between.

That suggests that there should be real "psychic athletes" as well. And, indeed we have many who claim that they are and they have many people who've witnessed their powers to back them up. John Edward is an obvious one, but Silva's another. I'm not familiar with his work, but it sounds like he claimed to have these abilities. If he didn't, he claimed that he could teach others to have or enhance these abilities. And I assume he did it for a price.

But, every time these "psychic athletes" are offered the chance to jump the hurdles or do a back flip or hit the bullseye, they decline. Surely, if Silva's techniques worked, one of his students would have stepped forward by now.

That's, I think, what makes people frustrated when they here another story of an amazing coincidence which is attributed to the paranormal.

If it's real, there must be a psychic Jesse Owens or Michael Phelps or Nadia Comenici. But where are they?

Ward

Certainly a fair analysis, however there are several thoughts I have to inject here:

Again, Silva or Edwards being probable (certain in the case of Edwards) frauds who could never duplicate their claimed feats is a separate matter entirely. Edwards says he can channel the dead through audience members. The fact he could never do so in a scientifically documentable way is not a relevant issue toward discussing if certain living beings have a means of thought transfer in rare situations.

Toward the metaphor Edwards claims he can lift 100,000 pounds at will. He never can but shows up with barbells with balloons on the end.

Of course that's not what we're looking for.

Now where is Jesse Owns or Nadia Comenici? Well their grandma isn't under the bumper of the family station wagon at every Olympics they show up at, and even though some people think it's good enough to throw a stuffed effigy of grandma under a car and yell at Nadia "well, lift it! Why can't ya? Huh? Huh? Huh? C'mon, you said you did it once!" she just gets flustered and doesn't even understand herself why she can't do it.


I think you're trying to say we could accept the superhuman feats of strength metaphor and it should be able to be observed on command if we put enough people in front of family cars and throw what looks like their grandma under it.

They've all been fake situations and mother nature doesn't like to get fooled.

I don't feel this amounts to "Special Pleading" either, it's a logical equation.

For telepathy to be scientifically documented we'd need to demonstrate its repeatability and explain the mechanism behind it, right? Yet we don't have repeatability documented of superhuman feats of strength in emergencies, simply because it's so rare and not everyone wears a camera 7/24. All we have is anecdotal stories by word of mouth. People cannot lift cars off family members on command whenever they want.

Yet that is acceptable because we can scientifically explain the mechanism.

We can't do that with telepathy yet with the physical laws we presently have. We can't explain the energy transfer, the biological interface through space.

If telepathy functions as a similar tool, people cannot transfer thoughts on command. When it might happen, it will be even harder to document because you'd have to set the situation up beforehand, convince witnesses you didn't rehearse this first... imagine the first example I offered. Even if we had a camera present to record the whole thing, taken from a skeptic's POV, it looks fraudulent simply because we knew each other before the event.

I fully understand and agree that most of the things people present as telepathy do have rational explanations. (Pixel42's rationalization of the example I provided was wrong, I'll explain that directly in a reply to them)

I would speculate that if it is real it occurs so rarely and in such a non obvious way it is incredibly hard to prove. Like rogue waves, if you caught my other analogy. One has never been filmed. Most who have seen them were killed by them. They weren't believed until radar mapped the oceans from space, and several were documented. Like a tree falling in a forest with no one ever witnessing it- and all the John Edwards in the world being proven frauds, should not be a part of the equation

(note I'm not actually disagreeing with you or forcing my POV for you to accept as your own, just offering the way the issue appears to me)

 

[batvette]

Batvette, allow me to rephrase what I think is the main objection to this line of thinking: your belief is based on criteria so loose that it makes the existence of the alleged phenomenon indistinguishable from its non-existence.

That does indeed seem to be the case. I think what Jose Silva was doing was trying to improve the possibility of verifiability. The more we could understand how it could be summoned, the more we could summon and observe it- and that will be difficult because I believe when it happens it is very subtle and very easy to be dismissed as random noise.
What if it happened only once in a person's lifetime? How would you learn to distinguish it from a daydream or even a delusion? Especially if you believed it were impossible?

 

[batvette]

There is nothing at all surprising about a woman who was clearly attracted to you, and knew the feeling was mutual, hearing an "inner voice" telling her to return, nor that you would have been earnestly wishing that she would do so at the time. It certainly isn't evidence of telepathy, just of two people reading each others signals accurately.

We can all tell such stories. The fact remains that all attempts to establish whether there is anything more than chance and human psychology behind such stories (and there have been many) have come to nought.

I'm afraid you've had to introduce several assumptions or inaccuracies to rationalize this as such.
Number one, she wasn't attracted to me toward seeking intimacy with me.
Our relationship was platonic from her end.
Number two there were no signals given by me that I didn't want her to leave, she'd been over my house a dozen times before, we'd hang around, drink a beer, as often as not she'd end up thoroughly annoying me. My impulse to get her to turn around and come back came after she'd left.
Number three when she returned she said "what?" clearly responding as if I had called her name- and we discussed how she had thought I had spoken to her to return, yet she was so far and through a closed heavy wooden door she could only have done so if I'd shouted at the top of my lungs.

I do thank you for patiently reading that description and thoughtfully replying.
At the time it happened I was as surprised as anyone that I'd actually done it. (if in fact that is what really happened) I have never attempted to do it on anyone again, and it was weird that I even tried it that night. I never did have an intimate relationship with Jodi, she moved to Oregon a few months later. We did discuss that event a few weeks later, I thought it would impress her a little more but she didn't seem to think it was that far out of the ordinary, and neither did I.

It might be said I didn't feel as if I had some power I should gloat about or try on others but something to respect and not trifle with.

Please feel free to disbelieve as you will, you don't know me from adam-yet I have nothing to gain from making this up- merely sharing this to offer why I, while wishing to expose charlatans and frauds like Edwards, still can't just walk away believing the phenomenon can't exist- and why I attach "special pleadings" to its possible existence. I'm only applying conditions as I (believe I) observed them.

 

[Resume]

What if it happened only once in a person's lifetime? How would you learn to distinguish it from a daydream or even a delusion? Especially if you believed it were impossible?

If it is truly indistinguishable, it's irrelevant, isn't it? If you can't find a mechanism, or a method to quantify its effect, what have you more than an anecdote that can be dismissed as a congnitive error or bias?

 

[carlitos]

I'm afraid you've had to introduce several assumptions or inaccuracies to rationalize this as such.
Number one, she wasn't attracted to me toward seeking intimacy with me.
Our relationship was platonic from her end.
Number two there were no signals given by me that I didn't want her to leave, she'd been over my house a dozen times before, we'd hang around, drink a beer, as often as not she'd end up thoroughly annoying me. My impulse to get her to turn around and come back came after she'd left.
Number three when she returned she said "what?" clearly responding as if I had called her name- and we discussed how she had thought I had spoken to her to return, yet she was so far and through a closed heavy wooden door she could only have done so if I'd shouted at the top of my lungs.

You've just described the start of most relationships. Even TV movies and sitcoms have the characters annoying each other before they finally hook up. You're offering this as proof of the supernatural?

...
At the time it happened I was as surprised as anyone that I'd actually done it. (if in fact that is what really happened) I have never attempted to do it on anyone again, and it was weird that I even tried it that night. I never did have an intimate relationship with Jodi, she moved to Oregon a few months later. We did discuss that event a few weeks later, I thought it would impress her a little more but she didn't seem to think it was that far out of the ordinary, and neither did I.

Because it wasn't. Nothing happened other than two people thinking about taking things further.

 

[Resume]

I'm afraid you've had to introduce several assumptions or inaccuracies to rationalize this as such.
Number one, she wasn't attracted to me toward seeking intimacy with me.
Our relationship was platonic from her end.
Number two there were no signals given by me that I didn't want her to leave, she'd been over my house a dozen times before, we'd hang around, drink a beer, as often as not she'd end up thoroughly annoying me. My impulse to get her to turn around and come back came after she'd left.
Number three when she returned she said "what?" clearly responding as if I had called her name- and we discussed how she had thought I had spoken to her to return, yet she was so far and through a closed heavy wooden door she could only have done so if I'd shouted at the top of my lungs.

You do understand this is how you remember the event and thus subject to the frailty of human memory? As it stands, well, perhaps this person was horny for you and you misinterpreted that as well, and that whole "radar love" wish-thinking effect came into play.

Can you consider a cognitive bias or error on your part?

 

[Old man]

...The more we could understand how it could be summoned...

This reminds me of the 'footers showing us how to 'call' Bigfoot.

What if it happened only once in a person's lifetime? How would you learn to distinguish it from a daydream or even a delusion? Especially(Even) if you believed it were im possible?

Fify.

 

[wardenclyffe]

---snip---

Now where is Jesse Owns or Nadia Comenici? Well their grandma isn't under the bumper of the family station wagon at every Olympics they show up at, and even though some people think it's good enough to throw a stuffed effigy of grandma under a car and yell at Nadia "well, lift it! Why can't ya? Huh? Huh? Huh? C'mon, you said you did it once!" she just gets flustered and doesn't even understand herself why she can't do it.


I think you're trying to say we could accept the superhuman feats of strength metaphor and it should be able to be observed on command if we put enough people in front of family cars and throw what looks like their grandma under it.

They've all been fake situations and mother nature doesn't like to get fooled.

I don't feel this amounts to "Special Pleading" either, it's a logical equation.

For telepathy to be scientifically documented we'd need to demonstrate its repeatability and explain the mechanism behind it, right? Yet we don't have repeatability documented of superhuman feats of strength in emergencies, simply because it's so rare and not everyone wears a camera 7/24. All we have is anecdotal stories by word of mouth. People cannot lift cars off family members on command whenever they want.

---snip---

But there are people who could lift a car whether someone's underneath it or not. There are Olympic weightlifters who could easily lift a car enough for someone to get out from under it. These people are genetically predisposed to be able to do such things and they also train for years. This allows them to regularly, predictably and reliably perform such feats under testing conditions.

Silva is paid to train or coach "psychic" athletes. You said that you used one of his techniques successfully once and you never took this type of training very seriously. Certainly, Silva has students who have paid him good money. At least some of those students must have taken the training very seriously. Where are they?

They wouldn't need to get every telepathic message 100% right. They would just have to get very simple messages correct at a rate that's better than mere chance would suggest.

This seems like it would be easy for someone who paid a lot of money for training from a top-flight instructor like Silva. I wish someone like that would come forward.

If, on the other hand, psychic phenomena are indistiguishable from mere coincidence, then why not simply call it coincidence? As I've pointed out before, there's a whole website dedicated to recording anecdotes about interesting and fun coincidences: www.theoddsmustbecrazy.com

Ward

 

[Robin1]

Off topic, sort of...Anyone know where TrueThat is? She was interested in the subject of telepathy and I'm surprised she hasn't commented!

 

[batvette]

You've just described the start of most relationships. Even TV movies and sitcoms have the characters annoying each other before they finally hook up. You're offering this as proof of the supernatural?



Because it wasn't. Nothing happened other than two people thinking about taking things further.

Why would you think that when I said this?

Number one, she wasn't attracted to me toward seeking intimacy with me.

In fact what you've done is insist that the event can be explained as an prior exchange of signals that my summary of the event and my relationship with this person, just explained were not consistent with that at all.

She did not want to return, she left as soon as we had that brief exchange and we never became intimate.

It further does not explain her statement when she returned. She did not say "Gee I think I won't go at all and will stay longer". She exclaimed "What?" as if I'd yelled at her.

My recollection of this is quite accurate, it's not something you just forget about.

Again any of you are free to assume someone is coming in here to yank your chain and I don't expect to convince you to abandon your beliefs- but stop and think that adding assumptions to modify my recollections of this are not going to cause me to abandon mine- and from a logical standpoint can be taken by me as eroding the position many of you have that no evidence of it existing could prove a null.

(to wit, is it possible many times in the past people had events of this phenomenon verifiable by witnesses but skeptics were so insistent about dismissing them they were all written off?)

It is accurately noted that many people offering an anecdotal tale could have, over time, twisted some details to get it to fit their requirement for validation. It can be said that the same thing is going on here, but from the other side.

I'm not trying to troll here, and if validation were my sole purpose I'd be in a paranormal sycophant forum. (I came to JREF for the purpose of finding arguments for debunking 911 conspiracies, for several years seeing some great discussions on that)

If I'm going to bend here it would be that by some of the explanations given here, the second example I offered with the neighbor attempting a possible break in, did have a more rational explanation. Perhaps I suspected him all along and his trip to the bathroom was a bit longer than usual. That's what I'm looking for in rationality.

However this woman was never interested in me in that way at all, not that night or any other- and her reactions were consistent with what we both believed later, happened. There was no sexual tension or escalation of intimacy prior to her leaving-no signals, no dopey eyed looks- it just didn't happen that way.

 

[dafydd]

Let's be generous and say that telepathy worked, once. So what? Has telepathy improved your life or has science done that?

 

[Resume]

My recollection of this is quite accurate, it's not something you just forget about.

This is exactly what every human being claims right up to the point where they're shown they're quite mistaken about that. And for some, even after.

If you can't admit to having cognitive biases, or being prone to cognitive error, you're not really being all that open-minded, are you? The two anecdotes you've related are not impressive as examples of telepathy; both reflect reasonable human behavior that perhaps gained embellishment, and thus significance over time.

 

[batvette]

But there are people who could lift a car whether someone's underneath it or not. There are Olympic weightlifters who could easily lift a car enough for someone to get out from under it. These people are genetically predisposed to be able to do such things and they also train for years. This allows them to regularly, predictably and reliably perform such feats under testing conditions.

Silva is paid to train or coach "psychic" athletes. You said that you used one of his techniques successfully once and you never took this type of training very seriously. Certainly, Silva has students who have paid him good money. At least some of those students must have taken the training very seriously. Where are they?

They wouldn't need to get every telepathic message 100% right. They would just have to get very simple messages correct at a rate that's better than mere chance would suggest.

This seems like it would be easy for someone who paid a lot of money for training from a top-flight instructor like Silva. I wish someone like that would come forward.

If, on the other hand, psychic phenomena are indistiguishable from mere coincidence, then why not simply call it coincidence? As I've pointed out before, there's a whole website dedicated to recording anecdotes about interesting and fun coincidences: www.theoddsmustbecrazy.com

Ward

I see what you're saying but this really only calls our analogy into doubt for relevance, or at least how you're applying it.
It's not at all unusual for a 300lb athlete who regularly trains deadlifting 1000 lbs to go to a competition and deadlift 1000lbs. Wow, that's a lot of weight.

However when a 120lb woman deadlifts 1000lbs, that is something unusual is it not? Could she do it again if asked to? Not if what made her do it is only circumstances dictated by release of chemicals in her body caused by extreme duress in an emergency which can not be induced by any means other than placing her in a position where she is called upon to save the life of a loved one.

Nothing you could do, at least within the ethical bounds of science, could duplicate that necessity for this 120lb woman.

It would not be coincidence. (note I'm speculating, not claiming this) It would be an alignment of certain individuals in certain states of mind in certain situations which deem their occurrence extremely rare, doing something that even if you knew it was going to happen would be nearly impossible to document to the satisfaction of a skeptic- because they could say you knew each other and planned it.

And that certainly does sound like bull ****, or "special pleading" to me as I type that out. (I'm honest enough to admit the obvious self reflection here)

But if it follows what I have observed I don't believe nature gave it to us to **** around with or abuse. And I think I've met less than a dozen people in my life who I think could connect with me on some level. So in the end perhaps it is purposefully elusive.

Edit: And Silva could be completely wrong about how it works, so training our 120 lb woman would have no benefit toward repeatability- and consider training for Olympis weightlifting does not involve placing athletes in true life or death situations-not that I was in one but the analogy relates to unique situations which may not be able to be duplicated in laboratory settings.

 

[dafydd]

Any witnesses to the feat of this 120 lb woman?

 

[Resume]

Any witnesses to the feat of this 120 lb woman?

That's a good question. We're just accepting this anecdote on face value without any knowledge of extenuating circumstances. It's just the urban legend.

 

[batvette]

This is exactly what every human being claims right up to the point where they're shown they're quite mistaken about that. And for some, even after.

If you can't admit to having cognitive biases, or being prone to cognitive error, you're not really being all that open-minded, are you? The two anecdotes you've related are not impressive as examples of telepathy; both reflect reasonable human behavior that perhaps gained embellishment, and thus significance over time.

I'd admit to the possibility of either, but state I analyzed the event at the time, and have a poor memory for faces and names but near photographic memory for events and situations. This was about 10 years ago? I remember it like yesterday.
What you're asking is for me to admit the possibility I've twisted the facts to validate my beliefs and on that I am quite certain I have not. This event was pretty simple, what I did was spontaneous but quite intentional.
This (belief in one paranormal phenomenon) is not a religion for me, I don't need it in my life. I don't believe in ghosts or witchcraft, or eternal life as promised by the Christian religions. I don't go to casinos and try to read peoples' minds to win poker hands.
I do think a certain level of faith is involved here. If anything perhaps I should disbelieve the whole thing.



I didn't get laid that night or ever with her.

Can I say one thing, for anyone who wants to visualize this: Remember that episode of original Star Trek, with that guy "Charlie" who had abilities of telepathy to the point where he killed a couple of crew members (did they have red shirts? haha) and whenever he did something, he'd screw his face up with rage and intent, and his skin would get all red, projecting his power....

that is exactly the opposite of how it would happen. so you can see the dilemma of how difficult it might be to both become fully relaxed, and disassociate your mind from your body and all your senses AND intellectual thought processes... while at the same time trying to project a thought outward.

(which may even be useful for anyone wanting to project a thought at me to shut the hell up)

 

[batvette]

Any witnesses to the feat of this 120 lb woman?

In the face of your post #561 in this thread, why would you say this?

Sounds like you're just trying to be disruptive. I thought this phenomenon was fully understood to have a scientific explanation but be a good analogy due to its lack of reliable, media recorded examples.

 

[dafydd]

That's a good question. We're just accepting this anecdote on face value without any knowledge of extenuating circumstances. It's just the urban legend.

If there were any witnesses then they would have helped her to lift the 1000 lb weight. I'm taking the story with a huge pinch of salt.

 

[dafydd]

In the face of your post #561 in this thread, why would you say this?

Sounds like you're just trying to be disruptive. I thought this phenomenon was fully understood to have a scientific explanation but be a good analogy due to its lack of reliable, media recorded examples.

There may be a good reason why there are no recorded examples. A scientific explanation would require experiments. You tell me that a 120lb woman lifted a 1000 lb weight and I am supposed to believe it without question? I don't understand the point you are trying to make about post 561. I was just pointing out that the scientific explanations don't cut much ice with believers in the paranormal

 

[wardenclyffe]

I see what you're saying but this really only calls our analogy into doubt for relevance, or at least how you're applying it.
It's not at all unusual for a 300lb athlete who regularly trains deadlifting 1000 lbs to go to a competition and deadlift 1000lbs. Wow, that's a lot of weight.

However when a 120lb woman deadlifts 1000lbs, that is something unusual is it not? Could she do it again if asked to? Not if what made her do it is only circumstances dictated by release of chemicals in her body caused by extreme duress in an emergency which can not be induced by any means other than placing her in a position where she is called upon to save the life of a loved one.

Nothing you could do, at least within the ethical bounds of science, could duplicate that necessity for this 120lb woman.

---snip---

My point was that in athletics, not everyone is a 120lb woman nor a 99 pound wealking nor a 300lb weightlifter. There is a whole range of abilities based on genetics, talent, training and interest.

You seem to be suggesting that in the world of telepathy that everyone is equally a 120lb woman. That does not apply in any other human ability from athletics to music to mathematics to art or any other endeavor. I don't know what would cause you to believe that in this case there would not be extraordinary talents in this area, especially when people like Silva are training others to achieve that level of excellence.

And I understand that you are not necessarily a big believer in Silva. I simply use him as another example of someone who is making money in the field of the paranormal and you have successfully used his techniques at least once. Either his techniques actually work and there should be superstars who've been trained by him or you just got lucky.

Ward