Jogging in Georgia while black.

[bonzombiekitty]

That is my experience too. Liability alone tends to ensure sites deter unauthorised visitors.

Depends where. The city? sure. It's fenced in.

Suburbs/rural area? Nope. Heck, I work for a big home construction company. It's very easy to just walk onto our construction sites and look around.

I've walked around several home construction sites out of curiosity that were being done around my house when growing up.

 

[JoeMorgue]

*Flipping through my script*

Are we at the "Thermal defends a hill for no reason" act or the "Thermal flounces multiple times" act or the "Thermal attempts an adorable internet touch guy routine" act?

 

[Thermal]

*Flipping through my script*

Are we at the "Thermal defends a hill for no reason" act or the "Thermal flounces multiple times" act or the "Thermal attempts an adorable internet touch guy routine" act?

The script is fairly short.

Act 1: Joe Morgue lies about another poster.

Act 2: Thermal challenges the lie.

Act 3: JoeMorgue changes the subject or slinks away.

Go ahead, prove you're not a liar. Start on page one and show one post where I say other than what I posted above.

I don't understand why lying doesn't bother you guys.

 

[Thermal]

There aren't two viewpoints here, there's a continuum. Towards one end, there's "Three white men in trucks chased down a black man on foot and killed him with no legal justification." Towards the other end there's "The black guy brought all this on himself so he deserved to die." Somewhere in the middle there's "Yes it was murder but here are all the things he could have done differently and maybe they wouldn't have killed him." Personally, for the sake of my own moral sense, I'd rather stay at, or close to, the first end of the continuum.

Dave

Where does "Three white men in trucks chase down a black man on foot and killed him with no legal justification, but let's explore the details and consider what happened and what we might gain as a takeaway, instead of just another sordid tale of murder" fit on that spectrum?

 

[Dave Rogers]

Where does "Three white men in trucks chase down a black man on foot and killed him with no legal justification, but let's explore the details and consider what happened and what we might gain as a takeaway, instead of just another sordid tale of murder" fit on that spectrum?

Definitely towards the wrong end if you end up suggesting that black people need to change their behaviour to make it harder for white people to murder them; it's getting like advising women not to go out after dark.

Dave

 

[Shalamar]

Definitely towards the wrong end if you end up suggesting that black people need to change their behaviour to make it harder for white people to murder them; it's getting like advising women not to go out after dark.

Dave

I look at it more like "I agree she was raped, and it was horrible, but we have to know what she was wearing at the time and how hard she fought back.'

The correct answer is 'She was raped, and it was horrible' full stop.

 

[Mumbles]

Yeah that's always the game. 40 pages of pro-murder fan fiction with a mumbled "But yeah they are still guilty I guess" at the end of it.

At the very least whenever a black person gets murdered we also have the same peanut gallery in the thread who are way more interested in talking about what the black person did wrong than anything else which is icky regardless of who they claim to think is in the wrong after they are done character assassinating the victim.

This is also a part of a pattern we've seen on this forum for at least a decade - for some reason it's extremely important to know that the victim, when black, was not an absolute perfect being crafted by some god - but there's no concern shown for the often far worse records of those who attacked the victim, whether they're wannabe vigilantes, drunks going home from a wedding, police who just show up and starts screaming and beating people (or who just panic for little reason and begin firing on the victim wildly), or Karens showing up enraged by the victim's presence at a pool or selling water on a hot day. This invariably leads to our resident white supremacists crowing that the victim must be guilty of "not being an angel".

Simply put, after I note such people doing so on multiple threads, I stop giving them the benefit of the doubt as to their intentions. I assume quit a few others do the same, and adjust their responses accordingly.

 

[Thermal]

Definitely towards the wrong end if you end up suggesting that black people need to change their behaviour to make it harder for white people to murder them; it's getting like advising women not to go out after dark.

Dave

Whoa. That's a pretty wild diversion. Has anyone suggested that black people need to modify behavior? Could you point it out? I've argued about what a person should do if faced with a psycho with a shotgun or chasing you in a truck, but neither I nor anyone else seems to tie that to what black people specifically should or shouldn't do.

There was upthread argument about the wisdom of rushing a guy leveling a 12GA on you, for instance. And how one might evade psychos in trucks on the street when there is ample off street cover. I don't recall anything specific to being black in there though, save a couple now-absent posters predictable opinions.

 

[Thermal]

I look at it more like "I agree she was raped, and it was horrible, but we have to know what she was wearing at the time and how hard she fought back.'

The correct answer is 'She was raped, and it was horrible' full stop.

Such a take would make for a phenomenally boring forum with short threads.

Running with your example, I might use it as a jumping off point to discuss realistic self-defense techniques. By your standards, would that be victim-blaming?

 

[catsmate]

Cannot be overstated enough that these three killers had already gotten away with their crime until release of the cell phone video caused a public outcry.

The whole murder was successfully swept under the rug as a "self defense" killing of a man fleeing a lawful citizen's arrest. Had Roddie not taken the video, or had the video not escaped to the public, all three men would be free today and Arbery would officially be known as a violent criminal who caused his own death.

I wonder how many previous such killings were written off in that way?

This whole could-Arbery-have-run-a-mile-in-3:57 discussion seems to me analogous to the discussion of whether a rape victim fought back enough to make it a proper rape, and no less despicable. Men with guns hunted him down and shot him when they had no legal justification for doing so, and how he reacted to their ultimately successful attempts to murder him has no bearing on the fact that they murdered him.

Dave

Exactly.

 

[catsmate]

Depends where. The city? sure. It's fenced in.

Suburbs/rural area? Nope. Heck, I work for a big home construction company. It's very easy to just walk onto our construction sites and look around.

I've walked around several home construction sites out of curiosity that were being done around my house when growing up.

I've passed several large suburban housing sites in Dublin, I've never seen one in recent years (i.e. twenty or so) that wasn't fenced off. Perhaps for one-off sites in the country, but I doubt even that.
Fascinating cultural difference.

 

[catsmate]

This is also a part of a pattern we've seen on this forum for at least a decade - for some reason it's extremely important to know that the victim, when black, was not an absolute perfect being crafted by some god - but there's no concern shown for the often far worse records of those who attacked the victim, whether they're wannabe vigilantes, drunks going home from a wedding, police who just show up and starts screaming and beating people (or who just panic for little reason and begin firing on the victim wildly), or Karens showing up enraged by the victim's presence at a pool or selling water on a hot day. This invariably leads to our resident white supremacists crowing that the victim must be guilty of "not being an angel".

Simply put, after I note such people doing so on multiple threads, I stop giving them the benefit of the doubt as to their intentions. I assume quit a few others do the same, and adjust their responses accordingly.

It's entirely possible that they don't notice their own double standard.

 

[JoeMorgue]

It's entirely possible that they don't notice their own double standard.

I've learned over the years that "I focus all of my attention on something, but that doesn't actually mean I think it is more important" is something people talk themselves into actually believing.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I've passed several large suburban housing sites in Dublin, I've never seen one in recent years (i.e. twenty or so) that wasn't fenced off. Perhaps for one-off sites in the country, but I doubt even that.
Fascinating cultural difference.

I wonder if the location of the development puts a larger change on that, most areas being developed by a developer are large in the US and generally don't have a lot of traffic owing to the love of cul-de-sacs and so forth in the US, so you would have further to travel to get into the development than you do with similarly sized developments in Dublin.

 

[Thermal]

It's entirely possible that they don't notice their own double standard.

I've learned over the years that "I focus all of my attention on something, but that doesn't actually mean I think it is more important" is something people talk themselves into actually believing.

r/SelfAwareWolves

 

[Meadmaker]

There aren't two viewpoints here, there's a continuum. Towards one end, there's "Three white men in trucks chased down a black man on foot and killed him with no legal justification." Towards the other end there's "The black guy brought all this on himself so he deserved to die." Somewhere in the middle there's "Yes it was murder but here are all the things he could have done differently and maybe they wouldn't have killed him." Personally, for the sake of my own moral sense, I'd rather stay at, or close to, the first end of the continuum.

Dave

So, for your moral sense, you would rather stay close to one end.

Personally, for my own moral sense, I would like to stay close to the truth, whatever that may be.





For what it's worth, I think the truth is somewhere between the end you want to stay close to, and your characterization of the "It was murder, but....."

I haven't seen anything to suggest moral culpability on the point of Mr. Arbery. On the other hand, he's dead now, and I don't think it was inevitable that he would end up dead. It is at least conceivable that he could have done things differently and not ended up dead.

When the jury deliberates, none of those things ought to matter, but here in the internet peanut gallery, we aren't on the jury, and we can discuss other aspects of the case besides the purely legal.

 

[The Don]

I've passed several large suburban housing sites in Dublin, I've never seen one in recent years (i.e. twenty or so) that wasn't fenced off. Perhaps for one-off sites in the country, but I doubt even that.
Fascinating cultural difference.

We recently had an extension built. The builders made sure that the job site was well fenced off when they weren't on site because of liability issues.

 

[Dr. Keith]

So, for your moral sense, you would rather stay close to one end.

Personally, for my own moral sense, I would like to stay close to the truth, whatever that may be.





For what it's worth, I think the truth is somewhere between the end you want to stay close to, and your characterization of the "It was murder, but....."

I haven't seen anything to suggest moral culpability on the point of Mr. Arbery. On the other hand, he's dead now, and I don't think it was inevitable that he would end up dead. It is at least conceivable that he could have done things differently and not ended up dead.

When the jury deliberates, none of those things ought to matter, but here in the internet peanut gallery, we aren't on the jury, and we can discuss other aspects of the case besides the purely legal.

In the internet peanut gallery we can measure the length of the skirt, so long as we don't call her a slut for wearing it.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Whoa. That's a pretty wild diversion. Has anyone suggested that black people need to modify behavior? Could you point it out? I've argued about what a person should do if faced with a psycho with a shotgun or chasing you in a truck, but neither I nor anyone else seems to tie that to what black people specifically should or shouldn't do.

There was upthread argument about the wisdom of rushing a guy leveling a 12GA on you, for instance. And how one might evade psychos in trucks on the street when there is ample off street cover. I don't recall anything specific to being black in there though, save a couple now-absent posters predictable opinions.

How a citizen should react to being cornered by a bunch of rednecks in trucks is not the sort of hypothetical that most people need to worry about, unless they are black and in the south.

May as well have non-racial discussions on dealing with flaming crosses in your front yard. Or how to comply with conflicting verbal commands from a frightened police officer pointing a gun at your head.

****, zombie prepping is more relevant to my life as a white guy.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

As a thought experiment, let's speculate. What would have happened had Arbery been a proper subservient black man and acquiesced to his pursuers demand to be illegally detained?

How would that shake out? He might still be alive. Then again, I very much doubt that once Arbery stopped, this self-appointed anti-theft squad would let him leave. They're carrying firearms, and once he realized they intended to interrogate him about a crime or otherwise arrest him, he may well have tried to leave and still ended up dead after a violent scuffle.

Then again, maybe he's especially servile, a real Georgia ideal of the black specimen, and he simply accepts this amateur arrest without resistance. What happens then?

I'm guessing these local cops, that were so keen to sweep a racist murder under the rug, would probably side with our amateur cops. Arbery would likely be questioned, perhaps cited or even arrested for the minor trespass. Almost certainly no charges would be leveled against our 3 men who committed the crime of false imprisonment. Arbery would have learned, affirmed by the local police, that black men ought not go near white neighborhoods without good reason and that whenever petty crime occurs, the local goon squad will respond by rounding up errant black people to put to the question.

So yes, if Arbery had simply allowed his liberty to be violated by these three men, he might still be alive.

If we're imaging hypotheticals, I prefer the one were Arbery manages to wrestle the shotgun from the younger McMichael, and in turn kills both the younger and elder with their own weapon in an act of righteous self defense. I imagine the police arriving while the piss soaked Roddie is held at gunpoint and Arbery hands him over to the police for arrest. Hard to imagine this happening in Georgia, but a guy can dream.