Jogging in Georgia while black.

[Thermal]

The world record for a mile is 3:43. No woman has ever done it in less than 4:13, the fastest ever high school mile is 3:53, yet here you are acting like it's trivial to do it. The American 10 mile record is 46 minutes, which for the mathematically challenged is not a sub 4 time.

Oh for Christ's sake dude, it's an approximation for illustrative purposes. A couple hundred yards in 8 minutes is a leisurely trot. Change it to a five or six minute mile, if you are going mindlessly pedantic on it. The point is the same. A couple football fields in eight or so minutes is barely breaking a brisk walk.

Your evidence that Arbery went straight for the gun without hesitation is...? Remember kids, evidence that Arbery went for the gun after a 7 minute (iirc) long chase in which the gun was out the whole time is the opposite of going straight for it without hesitation.

THE ******* VIDEO THAT SHOWS IT

Also, show your evidence that, as you claim, "the gun was out the whole time". You made that up, a bald-faced lie. Show it.

 

[smartcooky]

Not clear on what the gotcha is here. There's no dispute that the owner had video on. I gather that Bogative's point is that Arbery was trespassing because he was casing the place, which seems at least plausible. That other people wandered in doesn't detract from that. He's saying it's weird to leave valuables just laying around, then put up surveillance cameras. Makes more sense to just secure the damn site.

The gotcha here is that he claimed....

"I have personally been on hundreds of jobsites in my life and there are two things I've never seen, 1) strangers walking around the project for curiosity's sake, 2) security cameras on the inside of a building that is under construction."​

And then later claimed...

I just got back from the job site and surprise surprise, there were no security cameras inside the house and no curious pedestrians walking around.​

I posted a video showing that security cameras at the very site Arbury visited (security cameras, by the way, that Bogative implies no building sites ever have) caught multiple "curious pedestrians" and "strangers walking around the project for curiosity's sake" (curious people that Bogative implies don't exist).

Now, if you had bothered to look at the post I bumped (including watching the bloody video) and followed the quote trail back to his quotes, you could have worked this out for yourself so I wouldn't have to waste my time re-explaining this to you.

 

[wareyin]

Not remotely the discussion, and a profoundly dishonest misrepresentation. Especially considering that I think everyone but one poster acknowledges that it was murder, and the murderers are racist.

Are you mixing up your replies? I didn't even imply you said it wasn't murder. I'm sarcastically calling attention to your typical 'he wasn't innocent', 'you guys always see racism everytime it's not there's arguments that pop up in every single 'white guy goes out to murder a minority' thread.

Why is just discussing the peripherals, which changes nothing on the main story, such a problem for you? Doesn't analyzing evidence to determine what is more complete account interest you at all? I guess not.

The OP is "Jogging While Black". It kicks off with an innocent jogger daring to show his face on a "white road", and being murdered for that offense. With all we have discussed over Lo these many pages, does anyone think that narrative is largely accurate?

It seems as though only you, Bogative, and Skeptic Tank think that narrative is largely inaccurate. Hmmm.

 

[smartcooky]

Absolutely. But as I argue year after year, the story had absolutely nothing to do with the thread title "Jogging While Black" (not busting your chops btw). This is a story about rednecks illegally assuming cop powers, not racists harassing some innocent wholesome jogger minding his own business.

The question is though, would the rednecks have armed themselves and chased after a white person trespassing in the building site? Luckily, we actually know the answer to this... its NO. Several people did trespass on that site, and they were white, and the rednecks did...... nothing!

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Oh for Christ's sake dude, it's an approximation for illustrative purposes. A couple hundred yards in 8 minutes is a leisurely trot. Change it to a five or six minute mile, if you are going mindlessly pedantic on it. The point is the same. A couple football fields in eight or so minutes is barely breaking a brisk walk.



THE ******* VIDEO THAT SHOWS IT

Also, show your evidence that, as you claim, "the gun was out the whole time". You made that up, a bald-faced lie. Show it.

I thought we had already covered that the video likely (it's a bit grainy) shows the younger McMichael raising the shotgun on the unarmed Arbery while he is still a bit behind the truck, and immediately precedes the final evasive maneuver and fatal struggle.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13081838&postcount=181

I fail to see how the video shows Arbery being 'aggressive' other than reacting to being chased for many minutes and having a shotgun pointed at him. I would label his action as largely evasive, and any violence he attempted as measured, reactive, and fully justified, but not aggressive.

 

[Thermal]

In the context of the obvious hyperbolic imagery used by yours truly when I wrote it, I think it turned out to be largely true. Do I think Arbery was murdered because a bunch of racists were enforcing a "white only" policy on their street? Obviously not, and the OP clearly provides context that makes that clear. Do I think that Arbery was killed in no small part because he was black and his murderers are racist? Absolutely yes, and evidence that has arisen since then has only made this conclusion more reasonable.

A bunch of good ole boys decided that a black stranger was up to no good, insisted that this person acquiesce to their absurd demand, and murdered him when he did not to their satisfaction.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Arbery was black in this example of misguided vigilantism gone wrong, and I don't think the perpetrators would have behaved in such an extremely dangerous way had he not been black.

They didn't kill him because he was trespassing. They killed him because they assumed, with no credible evidence, he was a serial thief.

I get your point, and it might well be entirely true. But consider that Arbery had just sprinted out of the house that they knew the owner was concerned about thrives in (consult the upthread video; he was hauling ass out of there). That puts it in "we got him" territory for me,at least plausibly.

Before going any further, is this a plausible reading of the facts that far?

After that, I don't doubt that their demonstrable racism aged a part in how they acted. I'm not positive they wouldn't have leveled weapons against some 'antifa' looking white guy, though, a la Kyle Rittenhouse.

 

[smartcooky]

Have you guys ever in your life been kids fleeing from cop cars? I have. You get off the ******* road, running between houses. Chase over..

A black man? Runnin through white-owned private property in "Good 'Ol Boy" country? Bwhahahahahah! Are you serious?

 

[lobosrul5]

The gotcha here is that he claimed....

"I have personally been on hundreds of jobsites in my life and there are two things I've never seen,

1) strangers walking around the project for curiosity's sake,
2) security cameras on the inside of a building that is under construction."​

And then later claimed...

I just got back from the job site and surprise surprise, there were no security cameras inside the house and no curious pedestrians walking around.​

I posted a video showing that security cameras at the very site Arbury visited (security cameras, by the way, that Bogative implies no building sites ever have) caught multiple "curious pedestrians" and "strangers walking around the project for curiosity's sake" (curious people that Bogative implies don't exist).

Now, if you had bothered to look at the post I bumped (including watching the bloody video) and followed the quote trail back to his quotes, you could have worked this out for yourself so I wouldn't have to waste my time re-explaining this to you.

But remember, its ONLY because Arbery was trespassing that the "rednecks" chased him. Its not as if they didn't start an armed confrontation with the other people who visited the construction site, thus proving no racism occurred /s

 

[wareyin]

Oh for Christ's sake dude, it's an approximation for illustrative purposes. A couple hundred yards in 8 minutes is a leisurely trot. Change it to a five or six minute mile, if you are going mindlessly pedantic on it. The point is the same. A couple football fields in eight or so minutes is barely breaking a brisk walk.

It's not being mindlessly pedantic to call you on yet another example of holding the victim of a crime to unreasonable standards.

THE ******* VIDEO THAT SHOWS IT

The video damn well doesn't show it. The video shows the final couple of minutes in a confrontation that lasted some 7 minutes. Arbery doesn't even go for the gun at the beginning of the damn video when it's out on camera!

Oh, wait, this is more of your "approximation for illustrative purposes" that the rest of us call ********ting?

Also, show your evidence that, as you claim, "the gun was out the whole time". You made that up, a bald-faced lie. Show it.

Have you even watched the video? Did the redneck pull that shotgun out of his pocket, or was it in his hands the whole time?

 

[Thermal]

I thought we had already covered that the video likely (it's a bit grainy) shows the younger McMichael raising the shotgun on the unarmed Arbery while he is still a bit behind the truck, and immediately precedes the final evasive maneuver and fatal struggle.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13081838&postcount=181

Agreed. We also know the gunman was the vehicle driver, and unless you can point to video of him hanging the shotgun out the window while he was driving, that was the first showing of a weapon we know of

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Agreed. We also know the gunman was the vehicle driver, and unless you can point to video of him hanging the shotgun out the window while he was driving, that was the first showing of a weapon we know of

How is veering off the side of the road after having the driver of a stopped truck point a shotgun at you "aggressive"? Arbery's first evasive move is away from the armed driver.

Travis points the shotgun at Arbery. He veers off the road to pass the truck. Travis repositions himself to the front of the truck to maintain line of fire on his intended victim, and Arbery finally reacts to charge the gunman, which ends in his murder.

I suppose charging is more aggressive than opting to risk being shot in the back by a man clearly showing a lethal threat, but I wouldn't characterize it as broadly "aggressive" by any definition.

 

[Thermal]

The gotcha here is that he claimed....

"I have personally been on hundreds of jobsites in my life and there are two things I've never seen, 1) strangers walking around the project for curiosity's sake, 2) security cameras on the inside of a building that is under construction."​

And then later claimed...

I just got back from the job site and surprise surprise, there were no security cameras inside the house and no curious pedestrians walking around.​

I posted a video showing that security cameras at the very site Arbury visited (security cameras, by the way, that Bogative implies no building sites ever have) caught multiple "curious pedestrians" and "strangers walking around the project for curiosity's sake" (curious people that Bogative implies don't exist).

Now, if you had bothered to look at the post I bumped (including watching the bloody video) and followed the quote trail back to his quotes, you could have worked this out for yourself so I wouldn't have to waste my time re-explaining this to you.

The "trail" was in a context responding to me. Your extrapolation from it is more than a little off the mark.

Theres no dispute that the place was videoed. I gather that Bogative thinks the problems on this jobsite were highly unusual to warrant the surveillance, hence his comparison to other sites that he has never seen cameras on, and lock boxes for valuables.

If you had read the posts instead of trying to gotcha, you'd have caught all that.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Agreed. We also know the gunman was the vehicle driver, and unless you can point to video of him hanging the shotgun out the window while he was driving, that was the first showing of a weapon we know of

And running a truck into someone is of course totally non aggressive too. Just normal behavior for good old boys like you welcoming blacks to your neighborhood.

 

[Thermal]

It's not being mindlessly pedantic to call you on yet another example of holding the victim of a crime to unreasonable standards.



The video damn well doesn't show it. The video shows the final couple of minutes in a confrontation that lasted some 7 minutes. Arbery doesn't even go for the gun at the beginning of the damn video when it's out on camera!

Oh, wait, this is more of your "approximation for illustrative purposes" that the rest of us call ********ting?



Have you even watched the video? Did the redneck pull that shotgun out of his pocket, or was it in his hands the whole time?

He was the driver, dummy. We have video of his truck caught on surveillance upthread. Show the driver with the shotgun "out the whole time" and other proofs you might have besides "wareyin making **** up". I'll wait.

 

[catsmate]

High schoolers are dropping that kind of time nowadays. I was in the 5s and wasn't even a runner.

Less than fifteen hundred people, worldwide, have demonstrated a sub-four minute mile.

 

[Thermal]

How is veering off the side of the road after having the driver of a stopped truck point a shotgun at you "aggressive"? Arbery's first evasive move is away from the armed driver.

Travis points the shotgun at Arbery. He veers off the road to pass the truck. Travis repositions himself to the front of the truck to maintain line of fire on his intended victim, and Arbery finally reacts to charge the gunman, which ends in his murder.

I suppose charging is more aggressive than opting to risk being shot in the back by a man clearly showing a lethal threat, but I wouldn't characterize it as broadly "aggressive" by any definition.

Please reread. Not what we were talking about.

The first time a gun is shown is in the final seconds. Arbery ran straight towards it, ducked around the truck to close the final distance under whatever cover it provided, and lunged at Travis, all in the space of a few seconds. Wareyin claimed the gun was out during the entire chase. I'm waiting for proof of that claim, because I'm sick and tired of the outright lies.

 

[Thermal]

Less than fifteen hundred people, worldwide, have demonstrated a sub-four minute mile.

I am not talking about sub 4 performance. I am comparing that serious runners can cover a mile in about that time, with pace of the 8 or so minutes for a couple football fields covered in the map. It's not that complicated.

 

[smartcooky]

The "trail" was in a context responding to me. Your extrapolation from it is more than a little off the mark.

Theres no dispute that the place was videoed. I gather that Bogative thinks the problems on this jobsite were highly unusual to warrant the surveillance, hence his comparison to other sites that he has never seen cameras on, and lock boxes for valuables.

If you had read the posts instead of trying to gotcha, you'd have caught all that.

Nope, you're wrong... again.

Bogative stated that he had never seen security cameras or curious visitors at any of the hundreds of construction sites he has visited... not ever... never

I think it BS, and I'm calling him on it!

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Please reread. Not what we were talking about.

The first time a gun is shown is in the final seconds. Arbery ran straight towards it, ducked around the truck to close the final distance under whatever cover it provided, and lunged at Travis, all in the space of a few seconds. Wareyin claimed the gun was out during the entire chase. I'm waiting for proof of that claim, because I'm sick and tired of the outright lies.

He ran straight into an armed skirmish line, perhaps because he was being chased by a truck that had already struck his body hard enough to transfer clothing fibers and leave a dent.

I don't know what wareyin meant, I'm just trying to nail down what exactly you meant by Arbery being aggressive. He was chased into a trap, and even in the final moments, took evasive steps until a man armed and brandishing a shotgun placed him in a no-win situation with a split second to make a decision.

I would describe Arbey's decision to charge his assailant as desperate, not aggressive.

 

[Thermal]

Nope, you're wrong... again.

Bogative stated that he had never seen security cameras or curious visitors at any of the hundreds of construction sites he has visited... not ever... never

I think it BS, and I'm calling him on it!

I dispute most of his position, and especially his subtext, but not on this point. Not seeing surveillance equipment on hundreds of jobs is at least plausible, depending on the kind of jobs you work.

IME, it's pretty rare, except for a HO/GC building cash on a lot they own (like the OP). They store stuff there because they use the dock and whatnot while they hustle up cash for a very slow moving job. I can see his point on it being at least uncommon in terms of most construction sites.

But really, with the easily assailable position he is taking ( that I challenged him on too), is that triviality really worth repeatedly pursuing?