Jogging in Georgia while black.

[TurkeysGhost]

Yet again: it changes nothing in terms of the McMicheals guilt. This is just to explain the available evidence to put the picture together. Remember when the early narrative was that he was a wholesome jogger just minding his own business, and being randomly attacked by rednecks not tolerating him on their "white road"? The rednecks are still guilty, and still murderers, but the attached narrative is almost entirely collapsed.

Seems that narrative of racists murdering a black man for imagined grievances was pretty close to the mark, especially considering that Bryan has stated that the shooter used a racial slur immediately after murdering Arbery.

I'm not sure what part of this earlier claim you think has been debunked. Arbery hasn't been shown to have been doing anything more serious than trespass onto unoccupied land. The killers have been shown to be racist by any reasonable standard, and their murderous response was to a largely imagined provocation fueled by their own vigilante fantasies.

 

[Thermal]

Interesting detail I'm noticing from the Wikipedia on the "prior incidents" section:



This surveillance video that supposedly shows a man that may look like Arbery entering the construction site also shows the person not taking anything. In response to this first trespass, the McMichaels sent out armed cars patrolling the neighborhood looking for the trespasser, whom they didn't find.

Sounds like this vigilantes had a hair trigger. They went armed chasing after Arbery, who allegedly trespassed in an open construction site and didn't take anything, because he matched the description of a guy who had previously trespassed on the same site and also didn't take anything. I'm really struggling to understand how that is a proportionate response or even vaguely in compliance with Georgia's citizen arrest statute.

I fail to see, even under the most generous reading of the law, how any of the killers had any lawful reason to forcibly arrest Arbery. Even if he were the guy on the first surveillance cam, he never stole anything during either of his brief trespass into an active construction site. On both occasions these idiots sent out armed trucks seeking to cause a potentially deadly confrontation over a case of suspected trespassing of an unoccupied property.

Absolutely. But as I argue year after year, the story had absolutely nothing to do with the thread title "Jogging While Black" (not busting your chops btw). This is a story about rednecks illegally assuming cop powers, not racists harassing some innocent wholesome jogger minding his own business.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Absolutely. But as I argue year after year, the story had absolutely nothing to do with the thread title "Jogging While Black" (not busting your chops btw). This is a story about rednecks illegally assuming cop powers, not racists harassing some innocent wholesome jogger minding his own business.

I humbly suggest that racists assuming they have the right to question "suspicious" black passerbys at gunpoint has a lot more to do with racism than you're letting on.

Do you think the McMichaels would have assumed some white teen jogging through the area was suspicious? Would they have assumed, with enough certainty to give armed chase, that a white jogger was responsible for previous petty thefts? Would they have been so sure in themselves to make this amateur arrest that they would have shot and killed a white teen that refused to comply? Hard to say beyond speculation I assume.

Would they have called a white teen a ****** after shooting him in the chest with a shotgun, killing him? Almost certainly not.

 

[wareyin]

Discussed upthread. Put yourself in the position of being on foot, and guys in trucks yelling at you. What do you do? Stay on their turf, the paved street?

Have you guys ever in your life been kids fleeing from cop cars? I have. You get off the ******* road, running between houses. Chase over.

And an actual world class runner can drop a mile in four minutes. Based on the map provided way upthread, the distance covered back and forth looks like a couple hundred yards, tops. That's a leisurely trot pace. All considered, it sounds to me like Arbery was ******* with them, not scared at all, till the final showdown, and even then, he was not intimidated or running off the road into the obvious cover.

Yet again: it changes nothing in terms of the McMicheals guilt. This is just to explain the available evidence to put the picture together. Remember when the early narrative was that he was a wholesome jogger just minding his own business, and being randomly attacked by rednecks not tolerating him on their "white road"? The rednecks are still guilty, and still murderers, but the attached narrative is almost entirely collapsed.

ftfy
I get you don't like the narrative, so why they to create your own while claiming if the man wasn't dropping world class athlete times then he was only toying with the guys who spent the better part of 10 minutes chasing him around in vehicles while pointing loaded weapons at him?

 

[Thermal]

That's why I hate "narratives."

Reality is the story, it doesn't have a separate story being told on top of it.
I said from the first post that I didn't care, and still don't, if Arbery was a wholesome being of pure light who was friends with all the friendly woodland creatures or an Eldritch Abomination who's drivers license photo was an 18th century woodcutting of him terrorizing the village children.

He was still murdered either way.

Bull ****. "Jogging While Black" is an entirely bull **** narrative being told on top of it. Pages of argument went down before posters agreed that Arbery was not just minding his own business and being harrassed for just being black and daring to jog on a "white road". This is a story of rednecks thinking they are cops and murdering a guy. Its not the experience of innocently being black.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Bull ****. "Jogging While Black" is an entirely bull **** narrative being told on top of it. Pages of argument went down before posters agreed that Arbery was not just minding his own business and being harrassed for just being black and daring to jog on a "white road". This is a story of rednecks thinking they are cops and murdering a guy. Its not the experience of innocently being black.

Not all racists are skinheads committing deliberate hate crimes. Plenty of racially motivated crimes are perpetrated by people, mislead by their own unexamined biases, who wrongly believe they are in the right.

I don't know how to come to any other conclusion than racism for these killers to assume some nosey black guy jogging through the area simply had to be their elusive thief. It's a huge leap in logic. Given the use of a racial slur in the immediate aftermath of them slaying the unarmed man, it's hard not to conclude that their racial animus played some role in their assumption that Arbery was their criminal.

What did the McMichaels actually know? Arbery looked like a black guy that was caught on camera previously trespassing on a construction site (among several others) who didn't steal anything. Also likely unrelated thefts occurred in the area, therefore any black young man in the area is suspect.

How is that not racially motivated?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Bull ****. "Jogging While Black" is an entirely bull **** narrative being told on top of it. Pages of argument went down before posters agreed that Arbery was not just minding his own business and being harrassed for just being black and daring to jog on a "white road". This is a story of rednecks thinking they are cops and murdering a guy. Its not the experience of innocently being black.

And I'm not going down another trolling, contrarian road with you trying to figure out why on Earth you think yet another minor side distinction matters so much more then the facts and the main discussion.

I don't have a "Congratulations, you sure took us down a peg for thinking something was a murder when it turned out to just be a mere summary extra-judicial executions." trophy to give you. I'm sorry. I can maybe print you out a certificate if you'll agree to go halfsies on the frame.

 

[lobosrul5]

Bull ****. "Jogging While Black" is an entirely bull **** narrative being told on top of it. Pages of argument went down before posters agreed that Arbery was not just minding his own business and being harrassed for just being black and daring to jog on a "white road". This is a story of rednecks thinking they are cops and murdering a guy. Its not the experience of innocently being black.

Well yes... I agree

ETA: oh wait, reading upthread, now I see. You really, REALLY(?!), believe these rednecks would've done the same had Arbery been white? Come on.

 

[JoeMorgue]

For some reason every discussion of every dead black person has to have the "Okay but it is vitally important to point out that they weren't no angel" subtopic, and the a discussion about why we just had to have that subtopic or why it matter.

 

[wareyin]

For some reason every discussion of every dead black person has to have the "Okay but it is vitally important to point out that they weren't no angel" subtopic, and the a discussion about why we just had to have that subtopic or why it matter.

Look, if we can prove that a murdered black person at one time in their life broke the law, then that murder wasn't "the experience of innocently being black." And if they weren't innocent as the purest driven snow, then the racist redneck that killed them didn't do so for racist reasons. And if that killer didn't do it for racist reasons, we've proven definitively that racism doesn't exist! QED!

 

[Thermal]

ftfy
I get you don't like the narrative, so why they to create your own while claiming if the man wasn't dropping world class athlete times then he was only toying with the guys who spent the better part of 10 minutes chasing him around in vehicles while pointing loaded weapons at him?

High schoolers are dropping that kind of time nowadays. I was in the 5s and wasn't even a runner. World Class are pounding sub 4 on the final mile of running 10+/- other miles. The point is that he was not evidently running, but just trotting back and forth, and yes, I think he wasn't in any real treat of the fat white guys in trucks.

Have you ever tried to duck cop cars? Did you stay on the asphalt to do so?

You guys seem to think Arbery was pretty timid. I have no reason to think he was, even after the gun came out and he went straight for it without hesitation. I think my man had some balls. You seem to think much less of him.

 

[Thermal]

Not all racists are skinheads committing deliberate hate crimes. Plenty of racially motivated crimes are perpetrated by people, mislead by their own unexamined biases, who wrongly believe they are in the right.

I don't know how to come to any other conclusion than racism for these killers to assume some nosey black guy jogging through the area simply had to be their elusive thief. It's a huge leap in logic. Given the use of a racial slur in the immediate aftermath of them slaying the unarmed man, it's hard not to conclude that their racial animus played some role in their assumption that Arbery was their criminal.

What did the McMichaels actually know? Arbery looked like a black guy that was caught on camera previously trespassing on a construction site (among several others) who didn't steal anything. Also likely unrelated thefts occurred in the area, therefore any black young man in the area is suspect.

How is that not racially motivated?

I'm not questioning racist motivation, and have said so more than once. I'm questioning the #LWB framework. "You cant even jog if you're black" is a bull **** framework.

 

[Thermal]

And I'm not going down another trolling, contrarian road with you trying to figure out why on Earth you think yet another minor side distinction matters so much more then the facts and the main discussion.

I don't have a "Congratulations, you sure took us down a peg for thinking something was a murder when it turned out to just be a mere summary extra-judicial executions." trophy to give you. I'm sorry. I can maybe print you out a certificate if you'll agree to go halfsies on the frame.

That's a bald-faced lie. I've said repeatedly that this is a murder, and you damn well know it.

What is it with you guys thinking that you can lie your way through arguments? You want me to post how many times I said it was a flat out murder? Does lying about other posters position feel like some master argumentative stroke?

 

[Thermal]

Well yes... I agree

ETA: oh wait, reading upthread, now I see. You really, REALLY(?!), believe these rednecks would've done the same had Arbery been white? Come on.

I don't know what they would have done. That's the hitch. Im positive they see blacks as lessers, but if Travis' 9mm was stolen as he claims, he might be chasing down any stranger with the same fervor. I don't know.

But the #LWB means that 'this is the kind of pointless harassment and indignity black people are forced to endure' (+/-). That is by no means the story here.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I'm not questioning racist motivation, and have said so more than once. I'm questioning the #LWB framework. "You cant even jog if you're black" is a bull **** framework.

I'm not seeing the distinction.

Jogging while black in this neighborhood was fatal for Arbery. It's an extreme example of the heightened scrutiny black people often face in public places, especially in mostly white enclaves.

 

[Thermal]

Look, if we can prove that a murdered black person at one time in their life broke the law, then that murder wasn't "the experience of innocently being black." And if they weren't innocent as the purest driven snow, then the racist redneck that killed them didn't do so for racist reasons. And if that killer didn't do it for racist reasons, we've proven definitively that racism doesn't exist! QED!

Not remotely the discussion, and a profoundly dishonest misrepresentation. Especially considering that I think everyone but one poster acknowledges that it was murder, and the murderers are racist.

Why is just discussing the peripherals, which changes nothing on the main story, such a problem for you? Doesn't analyzing evidence to determine what is more complete account interest you at all? I guess not.

The OP is "Jogging While Black". It kicks off with an innocent jogger daring to show his face on a "white road", and being murdered for that offense. With all we have discussed over Lo these many pages, does anyone think that narrative is largely accurate?

 

[wareyin]

High schoolers are dropping that kind of time nowadays. I was in the 5s and wasn't even a runner. World Class are pounding sub 4 on the final mile of running 10+/- other miles. The point is that he was not evidently running, but just trotting back and forth, and yes, I think he wasn't in any real treat of the fat white guys in trucks.

The world record for a mile is 3:43. No woman has ever done it in less than 4:13, the fastest ever high school mile is 3:53, yet here you are acting like it's trivial to do it. The American 10 mile record is 46 minutes, which for the mathematically challenged is not a sub 4 time.

Have you ever tried to duck cop cars? Did you stay on the asphalt to do so?

Your evidence Arbery stayed on the asphalt is...?

You guys seem to think Arbery was pretty timid. I have no reason to think he was, even after the gun came out and he went straight for it without hesitation. I think my man had some balls. You seem to think much less of him.

Your evidence that Arbery went straight for the gun without hesitation is...? Remember kids, evidence that Arbery went for the gun after a 7 minute (iirc) long chase in which the gun was out the whole time is the opposite of going straight for it without hesitation.

 

[Thermal]

I'm not seeing the distinction.

Jogging while black in this neighborhood was fatal for Arbery. It's an extreme example of the heightened scrutiny black people often face in public places, especially in mostly white enclaves.

Why didn't you call the thread "Trespassing While Black", then? Doesn't have quite the same narrative baggage, does it?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Not remotely the discussion, and a profoundly dishonest misrepresentation. Especially considering that I think everyone but one poster acknowledges that it was murder, and the murderers are racist.

Why is just discussing the peripherals, which changes nothing on the main story, such a problem for you? Doesn't analyzing evidence to determine what is more complete accurate interest you at all? I guess not.

The OP is "Jogging While Black". It kicks off with an innocent jogger daring to show his face on a "white road", and being murdered for that offense. With all we have discussed over Lo these many pages, does anyone think that narrative is largely accurate?

In the context of the obvious hyperbolic imagery used by yours truly when I wrote it, I think it turned out to be largely true. Do I think Arbery was murdered because a bunch of racists were enforcing a "white only" policy on their street? Obviously not, and the OP clearly provides context that makes that clear. Do I think that Arbery was killed in no small part because he was black and his murderers are racist? Absolutely yes, and evidence that has arisen since then has only made this conclusion more reasonable.

A bunch of good ole boys decided that a black stranger was up to no good, insisted that this person acquiesce to their absurd demand, and murdered him when he did not to their satisfaction.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Arbery was black in this example of misguided vigilantism gone wrong, and I don't think the perpetrators would have behaved in such an extremely dangerous way had he not been black.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Why didn't you call the thread "Trespassing While Black", then? Doesn't have quite the same narrative baggage, does it?

They didn't kill him because he was trespassing. They killed him because they assumed, with no credible evidence, he was a serial thief.