Jogging in Georgia while black.

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Nitpick about "kidnapping" hidden in spoiler. Barely related to topic:

[Nitpick] I don't like the way the word "kidnap" has been expanded to include any instance where one person won't let the other person go where they want to. It's really kind of a fallacy of equivocation. I grew up hearing the word "kidnap", and I knew what it meant. Someone comes along, grabs you, takes you away, and then holds you for ransom, or for political demands, or as a sex slave, or something like that.

Once upon a time, I was in a Wendy's when two armed men came in wanting some money, and told us all to sit in our chairs or they would kill us.

Those were very bad people, but I wouldn't call them kidnappers. I know, I know. I've read the statute. (Or at least one or two of them) and it meets the definition in the statute. I just don't feel like I've ever been kidnapped, although I have been held hostage. I've occasionally seen cases where a very minor crime was charged as an incredibly serious felony because, technically, it met the definition of kidnapping. [/Nitpick]

This is not in any way to suggest that what the McMichaels did was not a serious crime. It just wasn't kidnapping, by the dictionary definition.

 
And Arbery not having a weapon doesn't matter because... why exactly?

So they can't assault him because they didn't "brandish" their weapons but he can assault them even thought he didn't even have a weapon and... I'm totally lost at this point.

There's nothing here beyond just two completely totally different sets of standards applied to the two parties in this encounter.
 
Leftus said:
If someone were to pull up to me and demand that I stop because "they just want to talk" while holding a shotgun, and there being no reason that I should stop and talk to them, I'm not sure I would have reacted much differently than Arbery did.
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Alright now add this factor:

You were just trespassing and got caught, and you've been caught doing so previously as well. You know this neighborhood has individuals in it who don't want you trespassing in that building, and you know the people who "just want to talk" are among those individuals. You also see that the elder gentleman in the bed of the truck is on the phone with cops.

Now, do you still lunge, punch, and grab at the shotgun?
 
Meadmaker said:
Nitpick about "kidnapping" hidden in spoiler.
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And that nitpick is exactly why I said kidnapping/false imprisonment. Yes I know kidnapping usually involves moving of the victim in a legal sense. But in Georgia kidnapping and false imprisonment are under the statue, so my point still stands.

If it bugs anyone take your proofreading pen and replace "kidnapping" with "falsely imprisoning."
 
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Thermal said:
Khaki cargo shorts seem to be uncomfortable running attire, especially for a serious athlete. I really think framing all this jogger thing off his mother's stated belief is not helping anything. She doesn't even know what he was doing there, by her own words.

I mean, couldnt he have been just as plausibly been going out on this peninsula to check out the water? I walk up to the beach all the time just to have a look at Her.
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I don't see Cargo shorts as bad running attire. If he decided to go out with his wallet and his keys, I would argue it's better than running shorts. Cargo shorts are, after all, the superior form of shorts.

I've ran in worse attire. Boots and utes. On the beach FFS.
 
Originally Posted by Marcus
Can it be assault in Georgia without a gun being pointed? Someone did provide enlarged and enhanced images earlier in the thread but they still weren't definitive.

OCGA 16-5-20 (2010)
(a) A person commits the offense of simple assault when he or she either:
[…]
(2) Commits an act which places another in reasonable apprehension of immediately receiving a violent injury.

OCGA 16-5-21 (2010)
(a) A person commits the offense of aggravated assault when he or she assaults:
[…]
(2) With a deadly weapon or […]

McMichaels and son clearly committed an act - chasing Arbery in a pickup truck while armed with a shotgun and repeatedly blocking his path - which placed Arbery in reasonable apprehension of violent injury, and were clearly armed with a deadly weapon while doing so. I can't see the slightest room for doubt on this.

Dave
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Okay, thanks Dave
 
Skeptic Tank said:
Alright now add this factor:

You were just trespassing and got caught, and you've been caught doing so previously as well. You know this neighborhood has individuals in it who don't want you trespassing in that building, and you know the people who "just want to talk" are among those individuals. You also see that the elder gentleman in the bed of the truck is on the phone with cops.

Now, do you still lunge, punch, and grab at the shotgun?
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Probably, if my previous attempts to evade has failed. I've done it before, closing in on someone with a gun when I was unarmed. Working security, I stopped him for shoplifting, and he pulled up his shirt to show me he was armed. Well, with both of his arms holding on his shirt, he wasn't holding his gun and I was maybe 3 feet away. Closed in close enough that he couldn't pull and his hand to hand fighting skills were terrible. Mine weren't.

Trespass is not a crime for which they have the right to stop me. You can't point firearms at me and tell me "you just want to talk." That is not why you brought the firearms.

Also, they did not catch him trespassing. As far as he knew, this was just an armed posse. A bunch of yahoos chasing him down for no reason.

I'm thinking I might press my luck, knowing I can't run forever and fatigue will eventually become a factor where I can't defend myself. Take the first moron by surprise and if I close fast enough, the other yahoos won't shoot in fear of hitting their fellow yahoo.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
Alright now add this factor:

You were just trespassing and got caught, and you've been caught doing so previously as well. You know this neighborhood has individuals in it who don't want you trespassing in that building, and you know the people who "just want to talk" are among those individuals. You also see that the elder gentleman in the bed of the truck is on the phone with cops.

Now, do you still lunge, punch, and grab at the shotgun?
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I think he was also on probation and already had a probation violation for shoplifting.
 
Oh he was on parole that's totally different. I'm outraged he lived this long. Why don't we shoot black people the first time they commit a misdemeanor and save ourselves the trouble then?
 
Leftus said:
I don't see Cargo shorts as bad running attire. If he decided to go out with his wallet and his keys, I would argue it's better than running shorts. Cargo shorts are, after all, the superior form of shorts.

I've ran in worse attire. Boots and utes. On the beach FFS.
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I think the shoes are stranger than the cargo shorts, which I also found strange. still, he could have been out for a run in addition to other things and was dressed sort of halfway in between.

It doesn't seem likely he was planning on stealing anything. Where would he keep it?
 
sir drinks-a-lot said:
Is that what you think, or are you pretending other people said it?
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I'm sorry maybe I don't your understand your deep philosopher talk but my version of reality doesn't include "I just keep bringing it up as a point, but I'm not actually saying it" as a thing people can do.

Don't JAQ off. If him being on probation doesn't matter, why did you mention it?
 
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Leftus said:
I don't see Cargo shorts as bad running attire. If he decided to go out with his wallet and his keys, I would argue it's better than running shorts. Cargo shorts are, after all, the superior form of shorts.

I've ran in worse attire. Boots and utes. On the beach FFS.
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I see cargo shorts frequently at my gym, usually worn by African-American males.

It's a pretty multi-cultural neighborhood. It's in a heavily African American neighborhood, but across the expressway from my lily white neighborhood, and very close to Muslim, Jewish, and Chaldean enclaves. You have white guys like me, with older guys like me wearing as close to old style gym shorts as I can. Younger guys, white and black, wearing baggier shorts. Some of the black guys wear cargo shorts. Then you have the Muslim women in the hijabs, and the Orthodox Jewish women in the long skirts, leggings, and hair scarves.

And....somehow....nobody ever seems to get shot. Weird.
 
Meadmaker said:
Nitpick about "kidnapping" hidden in spoiler. Barely related to topic:
....
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The colloquial usage for kidnapping is not legally correct. It generally means holding someone against his will, whether you take him somewhere else or not.
Under federal and state law, kidnapping is commonly defined as the taking of a person from one place to another against their will, or the confinement of a person to a controlled space.
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https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/kidnapping.html

I guess outdoors might not be a confined space, except the shotgun would create the confinement.
 
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