Jogging in Georgia while black.

[smartcooky]

Are you not better than that?

There are people who really do not deserve to rate basic human dignity, who should be removed from the face of the earth (and some have been) - Charles Manson, Ratko Mladić, Ted Bundy, Radovan Karadžić, Josef Mengele, John Wayne Gacy etc (I won't list any more or we could start getting further into Godwin territory)

Its just a matter of where you draw the line.

 

[arthwollipot]

There are people who really do not deserve to rate basic human dignity, who should be removed from the face of the earth (and some have been) - Charles Manson, Ratko Mladić, Ted Bundy, Radovan Karadžić, Josef Mengele, John Wayne Gacy etc (I won't list any more or we could start getting further into Godwin territory)

Its just a matter of where you draw the line.

As soon as you start saying things like "there are some people who do not deserve to rate basic human dignity" you have started down a very unpleasant and dangerous path, in my opinion. When you dehumanise your enemy you can use that as an excuse to do anything you like to them - torture, rape, kill. Because who cares? They're subhuman. They don't deserve basic human dignity.

You're better than that. We're all better than that.

 

[Thermal]

As soon as you start saying things like "there are some people who do not deserve to rate basic human dignity" you have started down a very unpleasant and dangerous path, in my opinion. When you dehumanise your enemy you can use that as an excuse to do anything you like to them - torture, rape, kill. Because who cares? They're subhuman. They don't deserve basic human dignity.

You're better than that. We're all better than that.

Bravo. This thinking is what separates the good guys from the bad guys.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

As soon as you start saying things like "there are some people who do not deserve to rate basic human dignity" you have started down a very unpleasant and dangerous path, in my opinion. When you dehumanise your enemy you can use that as an excuse to do anything you like to them - torture, rape, kill. Because who cares? They're subhuman. They don't deserve basic human dignity.

You're better than that. We're all better than that.

Well said.

 

[wollery]

There are people who really do not deserve to rate basic human dignity, who should be removed from the face of the earth (and some have been) - Charles Manson, Ratko Mladić, Ted Bundy, Radovan Karadžić, Josef Mengele, John Wayne Gacy etc (I won't list any more or we could start getting further into Godwin territory)

Its just a matter of where you draw the line.

Where should the line be drawn?

Who gets to draw the line?

What standards do you use to judge who has crossed the line?

Answer those question and you might start to see the problem.

 

[bruto]

It's all to easy to stretch the definition of who belongs to the class of bad guys, and what constitutes deserved dignity. We have (at least in theory) a legal system that specifies due process and the presumption of innocence even for those everyone knows are guilty.

Unfortunately, the worst among us understand and take advantage of the paradox, that if they do their worst, we can fight them only with their weapons, and if they can convince us that even to say what we wish is as bad as doing it, they win silently. Our own leaders cheat and steal and lie with arrogant impunity as their opponents, if they would avoid sinking so low, can only dither in impotent rage.

I think there's an important difference between what you may say and what you may do. Rants and screeds may be the only way we can call out indecency and register our displeasure without becoming indecent ourselves, as long as we remember the difference; and as long as we remember to respect the law that says we may not herd our enemies into pits, or burn them alive, even if we can be forgiven for smiling when we imagine it.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Where should the line be drawn?

Who gets to draw the line?

What standards do you use to judge who has crossed the line?

Answer those question and you might start to see the problem.

Ah yes infinite handwringing, the reason nothing will ever get better.

 

[StillSleepy]

Sorry to deepen the rabbithole, but basic human dignity can also mean an awful lot of things.

 

[JoeMorgue]

"Oh man. Johnny Axmurderer is beating the mayor to death with a bunch of orphans wrapped in a burning American flag! We should stop him!"

"But where do we draw the line!?"

 

[Thermal]

Johnny Axemurderer may behave inhumanly. We don't. We don't flay his skin off in glee. That's why we are better than him.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Johnny Axemurderer may behave inhumanly. We don't. We don't flay his skin off in glee. That's why we are better than him.

So where's the line? Sure we can't kill him. Can't tar and feather him. We can't flay his alive. Can put in Supermax? Solitary? Prison? House arrest? a 20 dollar fine? A stern talking to?

That's always the problem with "hand wringing." It can both ways but it's always presented as a discussion terminating cliche going only one way.

 

[bruto]

So where's the line? Sure we can't kill him. Can't tar and feather him. We can't flay his alive. Can put in Supermax? Solitary? Prison? House arrest? a 20 dollar fine? A stern talking to?

That's always the problem with "hand wringing." It can both ways but it's always presented as a discussion terminating cliche going only one way.

I would suppose that in a society that is not utterly ****** up, there would be a method of policing activity, in which police would possess certain extraordinary and accountably discretionary powers with which to prevent and stop further offense, and a court system in which a speedy and public trial would result in a predictable level of consequence consistent with the crime.

Of course that's a pipe dream these days, but we can at least remember that in the minds of some there is something imaginable between impotent handwringing and mau-maus with machetes.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

So where's the line? Sure we can't kill him. Can't tar and feather him. We can't flay his alive. Can put in Supermax? Solitary? Prison? House arrest? a 20 dollar fine? A stern talking to?

That's always the problem with "hand wringing." It can both ways but it's always presented as a discussion terminating cliche going only one way.

I want to live in a better world, not one that's just as bad but to different people.

So yeah, I prefer a system where even the very worst are treated as humanely as possible while protecting the rest than going FuelAir on them.

 

[Thermal]

So where's the line? Sure we can't kill him. Can't tar and feather him. We can't flay his alive. Can put in Supermax? Solitary? Prison? House arrest? a 20 dollar fine? A stern talking to?

That's always the problem with "hand wringing." It can both ways but it's always presented as a discussion terminating cliche going only one way.

In addition to bruto and PJDenyer's posts, I don't think it's handwriting to simply resolve to be humane, no matter how emotionally satisfying it might be to slow roast the worst offenders. We don't torture mad dogs.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yes, it is a derogatory figure of speech, and intended as one. But it is not a racial slur.

Which non-white people does it apply to?

 

[Emily's Cat]

And to be blunt it would seem that a black man running through peoples' yards being chased by 2 white men would be at a high risk at being shot at by residents seeing it happen.

Yes, of course. I was just trying to highlight the reason for the objections to his topic of discussion regarding what Arbery "should have" done. I didn't feel that the next step of him being at risk for being shot running through people's yards would really help with that message.

 

[Emily's Cat]

There are people who really do not deserve to rate basic human dignity, who should be removed from the face of the earth (and some have been) - Charles Manson, Ratko Mladić, Ted Bundy, Radovan Karadžić, Josef Mengele, John Wayne Gacy etc (I won't list any more or we could start getting further into Godwin territory)

Its just a matter of where you draw the line.

You really might consider examining the basis and consequences of your position here. It's the same principle espoused by genocidal tyrants, slavers, and oppressors throughout human history.

At a very minimum, you're espousing that the morlock and eloi segregation is a good idea.

 

[Emily's Cat]

As soon as you start saying things like "there are some people who do not deserve to rate basic human dignity" you have started down a very unpleasant and dangerous path, in my opinion. When you dehumanise your enemy you can use that as an excuse to do anything you like to them - torture, rape, kill. Because who cares? They're subhuman. They don't deserve basic human dignity.

You're better than that. We're all better than that.

Yes, thank you.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Ah yes infinite handwringing, the reason nothing will ever get better.

So where's the line? Sure we can't kill him. Can't tar and feather him. We can't flay his alive. Can put in Supermax? Solitary? Prison? House arrest? a 20 dollar fine? A stern talking to?

That's always the problem with "hand wringing." It can both ways but it's always presented as a discussion terminating cliche going only one way.

Are you quite certain what it is that you're defending here? It might be worth re-reading the genesis, and making sure this is your hill.

It's in reference to Craig4's repeated use of racial epithets...

But yes, I feel entirely justified to dehumanize these morons and classify them as a hated other because that's what they did to someone else. It's okay to dehumanize people who deserve to be dehumanized. Not everyone is good enough to rate basic human dignity.

I've learned the lesson of 2016 well. This is a powerful and effective weapon and I, at every opportunity, online or in person apply it to their kind. I'm dehumanizing them because of choices they made to put themselves in a category that deserves it.

... and bruto's initial position that racial epithets are acceptable as long as they're only applied to people who actually behave the way the epithet implies...

I don't recall seeing any racial epithets that apply to the entire white race regardless of culture, history or location. Perhaps I missed it. If there were racial epithets disparaging white people in general, I'd agree that it was at the very least gratuitiously stupid. But I think there's a point at which people's matching of a stereotype makes them fair game.

Are you really sure that's where you want to get wound up about hand-wringing and line drawing?

 

[CaptainHowdy]

That's odd. I hear Arbery being brought up pretty often when people are talking about Floyd and systemic racism. Perhaps it's your media sources?

I do watch a lot of CNN.