P.J. Denyer
Penultimate Amazing
Recast slightly to show that we don't have to assume racism on the part of third parties to see that running onto someone else's property still might not have been a solution.
Jogging in Georgia while black.
- Thread starter TurkeysGhost
- Start date
- Status
Recast slightly to show that we don't have to assume racism on the part of third parties to see that running onto someone else's property still might not have been a solution.
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
It is a little dark, but then I suspect that chez Thermal is not in that neighborhood. In fact, I suspect that if you looked out your window and saw armed men chasing a person down the street, you might act on that also. But in this neighborhood it appeared nobody did, and the initial reluctance of law enforcement to pursue the matter reflects poorly on the likelihood that Arbery would have run into the yard of a Thermal here. Remember that although you see them as the "bad guys," they did not, and they may be more representative of the neighborhood than you are. Bad guys don't always spring fully formed from the head of the gods.
So yes, the picture is pretty dark, but how much darker is it than the known fact that armed vigilantes chased a man down the street and killed him in broad daylight, and that until the video their buddy took went public the authorities were prepared to do nothing?
Thermal
August Member
And your subtext is that that is the norm for white people's behavior, not the rare, but still far too frequent, exception? Would you think the odds are better, or worse, than lunging at actual gum waving multiple armed criminals? You seem to assume the neighbor would have to be both murderous and white. Neither would be my assumption about knocking on a door in an emergency. I can't believe we are talking about this.
In general, do you believe white people shoot black strangers? I don't. I think the odds are overwhelming that Arbery would not have been shot by a random unknown neighbor. I think the odds are quite high for being shot charging the armed criminals.
Do you think that, faced with armed psychos chasing you with guns, your odds of survival are better or worse at the door of a random neighbor on the street?
Maybe you shouldn't answer that, on second thought.
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2010
- Messages
- 32,124
The question isn't how often it happens. The question is whether it's reasonable that Arbrey would have thought that the people behind any door he knocked on would be likely to let him in to their house and bar the door to the people chasing him with guns.
This doesn't even have to be a conscious thought, just even a vague "I'll find no help here" which means that it wouldn't even occur to him to try.
And that will be dependent on what he believed the make-up of that neighbourhood to be, him impression of those demographics, and his past experiences with them.
Thermal
August Member
Or, more likely, step out on the porch and say "Travis? Greg? What the hell is wrong with you?!?" Trying to put myself in that situation, it's likely what I would do, seeing a neighbor. I think many would.
Sorry, did you just say it makes sense to face almost certain death because of the "make-up and impression of the demographics"?
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2010
- Messages
- 32,124
Again, we don't know what Arbrey's impression of the neighbourhood was.
The only evidence we have of that neighbourhood is that the neighbour opposite the worksite called the cops on Arbrey but apparently not on the other people who trespassed that day, that the McMichaels grabbed guns to chase Arbrey, that Roddy Whateverhisnameis participated in and filmed the chase, and that there are no reports of anybody other than the first neighbour and Greg McMichaels calling the police, despite the chase going on for nearly 5 minutes.
Not even close, no. You're trying way too hard to disagree, to the point of imposing your own silly meaning on what I actually said - ignoring portions of what I did say in the process.
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
It's always so easy to analyze things now, but I would add first of all that after being chastised with some justification for characterizing people too broadly, I would point out that this was a specific neighborhood in a specific region, with specific people, and I think it's a mistake to base any expectation on what white people in general might be expected to do.
And second, to suggest that there was a choice between certain death and an alternative presumes first of all that Arbery actually believed that death was certain. Having just based an alternative on the expected behavior of white people in general, that might be seen as paradoxical, and it does not seem to coincide with the decision Arbery unfortunately made.
But it also presumes that Arbery was in a position to make a rational judgment. While fleeing from an apparent ambush in the street, one might consider that he had time to think little beyond "oh ****, I don't know what to do."
We would all wish to rewrite the story to come to a different conclusion, and it's an interesting exercise - even useful, perhaps, in planning what one ought to do in the future - but in this context it's hard to do so without at least the appearance that we're trying to reapportion the blame. If only Arbery had acted differently, he might not have died, or at least he might not have died in the same way at the same time (After all, he might have been arrested by the same cops who were ready to let the murder go unprosecuted - what could possibly go wrong there?).
I think it's really really important here to distinguish between fictional speculation of what might have been done, and speculation about what should have been done, because luck doesn't make the bad people less bad, and imagining what he might have done makes him no less dead than imagining that Yoda came and told the perpetrators "that's not the ****** you're looking for." Wishful thinking does not diminish the responsibility of the murderers from murdering.
And second, to suggest that there was a choice between certain death and an alternative presumes first of all that Arbery actually believed that death was certain. Having just based an alternative on the expected behavior of white people in general, that might be seen as paradoxical, and it does not seem to coincide with the decision Arbery unfortunately made.
But it also presumes that Arbery was in a position to make a rational judgment. While fleeing from an apparent ambush in the street, one might consider that he had time to think little beyond "oh ****, I don't know what to do."
We would all wish to rewrite the story to come to a different conclusion, and it's an interesting exercise - even useful, perhaps, in planning what one ought to do in the future - but in this context it's hard to do so without at least the appearance that we're trying to reapportion the blame. If only Arbery had acted differently, he might not have died, or at least he might not have died in the same way at the same time (After all, he might have been arrested by the same cops who were ready to let the murder go unprosecuted - what could possibly go wrong there?).
I think it's really really important here to distinguish between fictional speculation of what might have been done, and speculation about what should have been done, because luck doesn't make the bad people less bad, and imagining what he might have done makes him no less dead than imagining that Yoda came and told the perpetrators "that's not the ****** you're looking for." Wishful thinking does not diminish the responsibility of the murderers from murdering.
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
If anything, the way the video surfaced seems to make it even darker. The only reason I can imagine for releasing it is that the killers thought it showed their actions in a positive light. That speaks volumes about their perception of the community they live in and its attitudes.
Dave
Unlikely, if you knew them well enough to be on first name basis, you would make the assumption they had a just cause to be chasing said stranger. And would duck back into your house and, maybe, call the police.
Nobody is going to assume that their friends are the bad guys. Besides, they are going to say something to the effect of "stop, thief" and you won't question that judgment in the heat of the situation.
The fellow who released it did, in fact, think it would "ease" the tensions around the incident. He is a defense lawyer, by trade. Not sure I'd hire him with thinking that ... robust?
catsmate
No longer the 1
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2007
- Messages
- 34,767
Not to our resident racists. They continue to profess that there was a level of justification for the shooting, bending over backwards to warp reality with accusations of trespassing, theft, violence et cetera.
wareyin
Penultimate Amazing
Don't forget the scary haircut!
Didn't the video help the McMichaels when the initial investigators looked at it?
The lawyer must have taken by surprise that the same video had the opposite effect by the GBI.
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2010
- Messages
- 32,124
Is there any evidence that that investigators looked at anything?
CaptainHowdy
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2012
- Messages
- 1,819
Two weeks ago everybody be jumping up and down chanting "Arbery! Arbery!" Now Greg and Travis could waltz out of jail and nobody would notice LMAO
wareyin
Penultimate Amazing
That's odd. I hear Arbery being brought up pretty often when people are talking about Floyd and systemic racism. Perhaps it's your media sources?
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Well, The Daily Stormer and VDare are not exactly reliable news sources!
Did they look at it? Really look at it? Odds are they had either their orders from the DA, who wasn't going to press charges, or they were quick to absolve too.
Yeah, would have loved to seen his face when it had exactly the opposite effect. I want to see a follow-up interview? I would ask "******* seriously?" I guess that is why I'm not a member of the media.
arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
Are you not better than that?
Last edited:
- Status