Joe the Liar

[gnome]

the government should forcibly confiscate wealth from those who earned it and give it to those who didn't

That is basically the attitude of Obama as expressed to Joe, isn't it?

If you define that as equal to "having taxes" and "changing existing tax policy in some way" then I guess you might say yes. But then there's a hell of a lot of Marxists out there...

 

[mr rosewater]

Please remind me who was the last president to balance the budget?

Now this time try without using SS and medicare current surplus for the phony balance.

Again this has nothing to do with Ohio Joe.

 

[mhaze]

Now this time try without using SS and medicare current surplus for the phony balance.

That immediately puts us before Clinton, the liar on budgets...

Andrew Jackon, 1835

 

[Malerin]

Back on topic:

1. Joe questions Obama, passing himself off as soon-to-be business owner, becomes instant celeberity thanks to Mccain.
2. Press decends on Joe, public finds out he's a liar, idiot, and deadbeat.
3. Mccain makes Joe the centerpoint of his campaign.
4. Mccain's downward slide continues.

 

[Cicero]

Back on topic:

1. Joe questions Obama, passing himself off as soon-to-be business owner, becomes instant celeberity thanks to Mccain.
2. Press decends on Joe, public finds out he's a liar, idiot, and deadbeat.
3. Mccain makes Joe the centerpoint of his campaign.
4. Mccain's downward slide continues.

5. Obama still said "spread the wealth."
6. Press never descended on Congressman Charles Rangel when he was discovered to have IRS problems.

 

[Malerin]

5. Obama still said "spread the wealth."
6. Press never descended on Congressman Charles Rangel when he was discovered to have IRS problems.

5. Didn't seem to hurt him any. Latest polling has Obama favored on TAXES by 14 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27297013/).

I think, post-bailout, a lot of middle class people would LIKE to "spread the wealth" around. Anyway, Obama was talking about progressive taxation, which has been around about forever. Idiot Joe didn't realize his taxes would actually be LOWER under Obama's plan.

6. Charlie Rangel? No seriously, what was your real point?

 

[mhaze]

5. Obama still said "spread the wealth."
6. Press never descended on Congressman Charles Rangel when he was discovered to have IRS problems.

7. Press never descended on Obama for ethics violations while in State Senate.
8. Press never descended on Ayer's house or investigated him.
9. Press never followed up on the high ranking Fannie May exec who was Barnie Frank's gay consort for years while loan rules were being relaxed with his help.

But Joe the Plumber...

 

[leftysergeant]

On the contrary, something like repealing cap gains tax would excite business and trickle every which way.

I see. You want the people who got us into this mess not to have to pay for the rebuilding of the infrastructure they have plundered and shipped off to China. Freaking brilliant.

Those who have capital gains to tax are, for the most part, those who have investments in companies manufacturing off shoore and selling here, or manufacturing here and delivering straight to the military, neither of which puts any great deal of fresh money into circulatiuon on main street.

Then there is the matter of one humongous national debt, from which the investor class has benefitted all out of proportion to the working class. So, given that fact, I fail to see how taxing the working class instead of the investor class makes any more sense than a ham and cheese sandwich at a Bar Mitzvah.

 

[Meadmaker]

On the contrary, something like repealing cap gains tax would excite business and trickle every which way.

Yeah, because cutting them worked so well during the Bush years, imagine what eliminating them altogether would do.

If this stuff didn't have a track record, I could see people sticking to this theory, but supply side economics has a track record, and that track record is so good that they had to add another digit to the national debt clock.

Some people say that it didn't work because it just didn't go far enough. Of course, some people say the same thing about communism.

 

[Upchurch]

7. Press never descended on Obama for ethics violations while in State Senate.

Heh. No, this is a pretty good one on the surface. Once you dig into it, however, it begins to break apart some.

It seems to trace back to this article from The Volokh Conspiracy. They base their accusations ...sorry, JAQing on lines from his 2000 and 2002 income tax forms. In 2000, he reported receiving money for “Foundation director/Educational speaker” (although I couldn't find the phrase in the linked tax form). In 2002, he reported receiving money for “LEGAL SERVCES / SPEAKING FEES.”

What's the problem? Illinois has an ethics law that prohibits taking an honorarium for an appearance or speech. Looks pretty cut and dried, right?

....except he wasn't getting paid for making an appearance or making a speech. He was getting paid for working.

Even The Volokh Conspiracy admits that they don't know that he broke the ethics law.

Did Barack Obama violate this over-restrictive Illinois ethics act? Without knowing the precise situations and sources of these “SPEAKING FEES” in 2002 and payments as an “Educational speaker” in 2000, it is impossible to be certain whether any of this compensation meets the statutory definition of “a payment of money to a member of the General Assembly for an appearance or speech.”

Also, I wonder whether Obama has rectified this problem in some way that I have not heard about. If not, I wonder whether Barack or his campaign has some explanation for accepting “SPEAKING FEES” or whether at this late date he should “surrender” several thousand dollars to the Illinois State Treasurer.

After all, they aren't making testable claims or accusing anyone of anything. They're just JAQing off.

Compare to what your source said,

Obama Broke Ethics Law as State Senator, Will Media Ignore?

They are awful certain when their source is not.

8. Press never descended on Ayer's house or investigated him.

Obama didn't make Ayers a central part of his campaign the way McCain made Joe a central element of his. And, of course, the press did investigate Obama's connections to Ayers in gory detail. There was just nothing to find.

9. Press never followed up on the high ranking Fannie May exec who was Barnie Frank's gay consort for years while loan rules were being relaxed with his help.

A valid concern but completely off topic. What does this have to do with anything?

None of this changes the fact that it was a stupid question from a guy McCain thrust into the spotlight as the archetypal American. That Joe failed to live up to what McCain hyped him as says more about McCain than it does Joe.

 

[T.A.M.]

It does not matter.

Unfortunately, Joe the Plumber (C), is aimed at the LIV (low information voter), who will not read up on, or dig deep enough, to realize he is a fraud, a planted persona geared to fool the LIV into believing that McCain connects with "Joe six Pak".

McCain has a new add out now, where various average looking people face the camera and say "I am Joe the Plumber". I only wish they ended it with Kirk Douglas saying it.

TAM

 

[pgwenthold]

I can't understand how anyone can seriously relate themselves with "Joe the Plumber."

As I said, my wife and I both have post-graduate degrees, and are both working full time in good positions. And combined, we don't make anywhere near $250K.

If random Joe on the street can somehow relate to a guy who claims he can make more than $250K, then I am in the wrong business, that's for sure.

 

[mhaze]

Yeah, because cutting them worked so well during the Bush years, imagine what eliminating them altogether would do.

If this stuff didn't have a track record, I could see people sticking to this theory, but supply side economics has a track record, and that track record is so good that they had to add another digit to the national debt clock.

Some people say that it didn't work because it just didn't go far enough. Of course, some people say the same thing about communism.

I'm not sure your comments directly apply to the current and forecast recession, where people may be expected to hold on to cash and assets instead of taking risks, making loans, and generally circulating money in the community. You've taken capital gains and sort of painted a broad Bushian stroke across it.

Taking a very narrow view here, eliminating capital gains would in current circumstances, cause vast amounts of transactions that would not otherwise have occurred. And the reverse would seem to be true. If you have a thriving economy, then one might say, jack up or level cap gains as is. But are you seriously suggesting that with predictions of recession, cutting cap gains would not be a good thing?

 

[Cicero]

And, of course, the press did investigate Obama's connections to Ayers in gory detail. There was just nothing to find.

Not according to CNN's investigation.

***.."In 1995, months after the little known Obama became Annenberg Project Chair, State Senator Alice Palmer introduced the young Obama as her political heir. Where was this introduction made? The home of 60's radicals, Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dorn."..***

http://minx.cc/?post=275010

 

[mhaze]

Not according to CNN's investigation.

***.."In 1995, months after the little known Obama became Annenberg Project Chair, State Senator Alice Palmer introduced the young Obama as her political heir. Where was this introduction made? The home of 60's radicals, Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dorn."..***

http://minx.cc/?post=275010

Preaching to the choir of Reverend Wright, are you?

Upchurch did well to trace the article back to Volokh, but then misdirects a bit to the issue of guilt or innocence, while trying lamely to smear Volokh - who are some very reputable guys.

My simple question remains: How many news vans have been parked outside the house of Ayers?

 

[noch1Narr]

As long as the underlying problems of the current financial fiasco (=brought about mostly by reckless deregulation and complete failure to provide any oversight/regulation over complicated financial transactions that took incalculable & irresponsible risks, encouraged by the Bush administration & several high-ranking Democrats and likely not going to be changed under a 72-year old man whose grasp on the economy is even more hazy than his clueless VP "choice") a reduction of the capital gains tax would merely encourage more risk-taking among investors (which you, mhaze, and your alterego Cicero, seem to encourage), but it would most likely be more of the foolish, irresponsible risk taking that allowed the various financial institutions and Wall Street brokers and high-stakes poker jugglers to build a cardhouse out of half-baked securities,mortgages, loans & investments.
Unless the causes of this financial crisis are identified and responsibly rectified (by folks other than former CEOs of the very firms that benefited from/participated in this downfall), we'll have squandered 700+ billion tax dollars!

 

[Cicero]

Preaching to the choir of Reverend Wright, are you?

Upchurch did well to trace the article back to Volokh, but then misdirects a bit to the issue of guilt or innocence, while trying lamely to smear Volokh - who are some very reputable guys.

My simple question remains: How many news vans have been parked outside the house of Ayers?

How did Upchurch miss the "gore" in the "gory details?" What turns other peoples stomachs acts as Underberg on his.

 

[Upchurch]

Upchurch did well to trace the article back to Volokh, but then misdirects a bit to the issue of guilt or innocence

So it doesn't matter if Obama is guilty of innocent of the charges? Why bring it up?

Not according to CNN's investigation.

I thought you guys were arguing that the press never investigated Ayers. Which is it? Seems you two would like to have it both ways....

 

[Cicero]

So it doesn't matter if Obama is guilty of innocent of the charges? Why bring it up?



I thought you guys were arguing that the press never investigated Ayers. Which is it? Seems you two would like to have it both ways....

1) No. The press never sent out any satellite trucks to Ayres home to camp out until he came out and gave an interview. If all anyone has to do to avoid being hounded by the press is to say that they don't give interviews, why has that tactic not worked for any other high profile person that has been drawn into this election story?

2) You said there was nothing to the Obama/Ayers connection. CNN proved otherwise.

 

[Upchurch]

1) No. The press never sent out any satellite trucks to Ayres home to camp out until he came out and gave an interview.

Wait, you mean that literally? You aren't speaking metaphorically? That's what your problem is? They didn't put trucks out in front of the house of a public figure whose history is fairly well known with a simple google search?




No, but seriously: