Joe the Liar

[Cicero]

The problem is that McCain has presented, and continues to present, the real Joe as being a real example of the "Joe The Plumber" myth.

McCain was interested in the response "Joe" elicited from Obama. You dismiss this salient part of the entire episode. Why?

Are you going to miss your moderating duties?

 

[Meadmaker]

The problem is that McCain has presented, and continues to present, the real Joe as being a real example of the "Joe The Plumber" myth.

My frustration is that the correct way to counter this is to take the real Joe, and forget all the negative stuff. Let's just take Joe at his word that he works as a plumber, and some day intends to make enough to buy the business and make more. Then, Obama can point out that until this guy makes so darned much money that he would be "Joe the Plumbing Company CEO", his taxes will not go up. For the real, hardworking, day to day plumbers, and even the real, hardworking, small plumbing company owners, Obama cuts taxes.

Even the real Joe fits into this category. Right now, he works as a plumber. Obama plans to cut his taxes. In a few years, he might, at least theoretically buy and/or start a plumbing company. When he does, Obama plans to cut his taxes. Some day, he might be a wildly successful executive at a huge plumbing company with fleets of plumbing trucks and full page Yellow Pages ads, and he, personally will drive his BMW to his vacation home. At that point, Obama will raise his taxes.

And none of the above will change based on his current status as an unlicensed plumber in Toledo, or the condition of his driver's license.

 

[mhaze]

McCain was interested in the response "Joe" elicited from Obama. You dismiss this salient part of the entire episode. Why?

Chasing and thrashing the Red Herring, Joe, has more payoff for Democratizoa than discussing Obama's Marxist slip?

 

[DavidJames]

Does anyone know if Obama or Biden are even talking about Joe anymore? A quick review of CNN, MSNBC, FOXNews and Yahoo show only MSNBC has anything related to Joe and it's a story about people named Joe Plumber or Plumbers named Joe.

Is McCain still using Joe?

Is this an Internet only issue?

 

[Upchurch]

McCain was interested in the response "Joe" elicited from Obama. You dismiss this salient part of the entire episode. Why?

Because I already addressed it above. "bad answer to a dumb question"

My frustration is that the correct way to counter this is to take the real Joe, and forget all the negative stuff.

There is no one correct way to counter this. What you present is a way to counter it.

The fact is, "Joe The Plumber" seems to be having very little effect in the swing states.

A Suffolk University poll of Ohio and Missouri finds that name recognition of "Joe the Plumber" is very high in both states -- but only a handful of voters said it made them more likely to vote for the Republican candidate. In Ohio, 68% of respondents had heard the Joe story. Six percent said it made them more likely to vote for McCain; four percent said it made them more likely to vote for Obama. In Missouri a whopping 80% knew of Joe. Eight percent were more likely to vote McCain as a result; 3 percent more likely to vote Obama. In both states, vast majorities said the plumber's story did not affect their decision at all. Meanwhile, Obama is leading McCain in Ohio and is nearly tied with him in Missouri.

 

[XBoxWarrior]

JtP is done...his exposure on the national media lasted for a few days...]

But it's over.

Perhaps he may lose his driver's license, and have to pay those taxes.

I think FOX may have even canceled his contract for a new 'show'.

Being JtP must suck today.

 

[gnome]

I don't see how "spread the wealth" is inherently a marxist or socialist idea. Isn't it just the opposite of "concentrating the wealth"?

Being in favor of money moving around isn't the same thing as saying the government should forcibly confiscate wealth from those who earned it and give it to those who didn't.

For example, isn't a "trickle-down" effect, a way of "spreading wealth around"?

 

[mhaze]

I don't see how "spread the wealth" is inherently a marxist or socialist idea. Isn't it just the opposite of "concentrating the wealth"?

Being in favor of money moving around isn't the same thing as saying the government should forcibly confiscate wealth from those who earned it and give it to those who didn't.

For example, isn't a "trickle-down" effect, a way of "spreading wealth around"?[/quote ]

the government should forcibly confiscate wealth from those who earned it and give it to those who didn't

That is basically the attitude of Obama as expressed to Joe, isn't it?

 

[maxpower1227]

Why would it be assumed that the negative publicity regarding Joe came from the Obama campaign? Most of it was dug up by the ("damn liberal") media, which may be biased, but they are not part of the Obama campaign.

I came away from the whole thing with a much more negative view of the McCain campaign...they either screwed this poor guy by bringing media attention to his personal life, causing his tax situation and possible sanctions by the city of Toledo for plumbing without a license to be common knowledge, or else he was a plant, which is one theory supported by his ties to the Keatings.

Either way, Joe screwed himself, and McCain brought media attention to it and made it worse.

Wasn't Obama outside his house? Wouldn't that make it very hard for him to have been a plant?

 

[Cicero]

Wasn't Obama outside his house? Wouldn't that make it very hard for him to have been a plant?

SmuggleSmacks only beleives "Joe" is a plant because of "Joe's ties to the Keatings."

Two fallacies equal a truth in the left's conspriacy theorists new math.

 

[Cicero]

Because I already addressed it above. "bad answer to a dumb question"

Sort of like Bernard Shaw's theoretical question to Gov. Dukakis about his wife being raped. Dukakis's answer was way more outrageous than the question. Same here with Obama.

 

[Malerin]

Sort of like Bernard Shaw's theoretical question to Gov. Dukakis about his wife being raped. Dukakis's answer was way more outrageous than the question. Same here with Obama.

Right, I distinctly remember Shaw's question:

"Governor, I'm getting ready to rape your wife..."

 

[Puppycow]

I think what everyone misses, is that who Joe the plumber really is doesn't matter. What mattered was Obama's answer. It would have been just another day on the campaign trail if Obama hadn't given a very marxist answer to him.

So now we're out to demonize a guy who asked a fair question because he got a bad answer.

Less brown shirts plz.

Negative. Progressive taxation is not Marxist. The important feature of Marxism is central planning instead of markets.

Obama was channeling Adam Smith, not Karl Marx:

The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. . . . The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. . . . It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
“The Wealth of Nations” (1776)

 

[Cicero]

Negative. Progressive taxation is not Marxist. The important feature of Marxism is central planning instead of markets.

Obama was channeling Adam Smith, not Karl Marx:

Great. Marx was influenced by Smith. Marx's "Theories of Surplus Value" embraced Smith's theories of economics. Maybe you should let Obama stick to "spread the wealth."

 

[mr rosewater]

Negative. Progressive taxation is not Marxist. The important feature of Marxism is central planning instead of markets.

Obama was channeling Adam Smith, not Karl Marx:

Right to build roads, schools, and libraries, not to take money from people who pay taxes and give it to people that don't but hey lets just ignore the truth.

 

[Meadmaker]

Great. Marx was influenced by Smith.

So was Reagan.

Let me tell you about this Invisible Hand. Many of you will remember that the phrase originally comes from the economist Adam Smith who believed that the actions of a free market work like an “invisible hand” to assure that the activities of many individuals, though seemingly self-interested, result in benefits for the common good. Ever since Ronald Reagan studied classical economics at Eureka College, Adam Smith was his hero. So everybody in the Administration quoted Adam Smith. Neckties with little Adam Smith busts on them festooned every male conservative chest in Washington when I was there. You had a wide range of choices: there were green Adam Smith neckties, maroon Adam Smith neckties, red, white and blue Adam Smith neckties. For a while, I didn’t think Ed Meese owned any other kind of tie. There were even Adam Smith scarves for the women. If Ronald Reagan had been allowed to run for a third term I imagine there would have been Adam Smith hats and Adam Smith raincoats.

Google is an interesting thing. I knew that Ronald Reagan often quote Smith, so I knew that typing in "Ronald Reagan" and "Adam Smith" would rapidly take me to an entry about Smith's influence on him, but I wasn't suspecting where it would lead. The above quote can be found at this url:

http://www.discovery.org/a/2073

 

[Puppycow]

Great. Marx was influenced by Smith. Marx's "Theories of Surplus Value" embraced Smith's theories of economics. Maybe you should let Obama stick to "spread the wealth."

Right to build roads, schools, and libraries, not to take money from people who pay taxes and give it to people that don't but hey lets just ignore the truth.

Ben Bernanke just told congress that we need another stimulus.

It's a bit of a mistake to think of this in zero-sum terms (taking money from one person and giving it to another). The economy is facing a recession now in part because consumer spending is falling. When the economy shrinks, the size of the pie gets smaller. Giving money to consumers would help alleviate that problem and spped recovery. Just as there is a "trickle-down" effect, there is also a "trickle-up." Businesses need consumers with money to spend, too.

It is possible to have an economy with both incentives for economic productivity and a social safety net.

 

[SnuggleSmacks]

SmuggleSmacks only beleives "Joe" is a plant because of "Joe's ties to the Keatings."

Two fallacies equal a truth in the left's conspriacy theorists new math.

But I guess it isn't a fallacy to assume that I believe this...which is why I called it a theory.

My personal opinion is that Joe is a victim of McCain's need to create a symbol of the working class...and it backfired, not only on McCain, but also on Joe.

 

[SnuggleSmacks]

Oh, and that still doesn't answer the question of why the negative publicity surrounding Joe the Plumber should be assumed to originate with the Obama campaign, rather than media acting in their own interests because it's...you know...a story.

 

[Puppycow]

One more thing: If Obama's ideas are "socialist" or "Marxist" then what the heck is McCain's plan to spend $300 billion buying up bad mortgages at face value and resetting the terms of those mortgages (giving taxpayer money to banks and homeowners). National Review and the Heritage Foundation panned that idea.