Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

[pgwenthold]

I'm reminded of an old CT saying: A nobody couldn't possibly take down the most powerful man on Earth (alone).

Of course, my opinion is the opposite. ONLY a nobody, alone, could take down the most powerful man on Earth. Any more involved and it's going to get exposed.

 

[pgwenthold]

OK, outside the White House the other day, I got the best JFK conspiracy ever.

Jackie Killed Jack!!

CIA agent Jackie "Jane Bond" Kennedy had a small pistol hidden in a Lambchop puppet.

OK, I had to stop right there and laugh. But it continues

As the limousine entered Dealey Plaza, Secret Service agent Roy Kellerman turned around and shot the President in the throat. Paralyzed, the President slumped over, and then Jackie shot him behind his left ear with her concealed pistol.

Remember, the pistol was hidden in a Lambchop puppet.

Immediately, Jackie leaped on to the back of the limousine, and that was the signal for SS agent Clint Hill to join her in the back seat. As the limousine entered the dark triple underpass, Hill fired his .38 revolver into the President's head to make sure that he died instantly.

Died "instantly" after being shot three times, that is.

The President was then rushed to Parkland Hospital where he was pronounced dead 30 minutes later.

PHOTO

Jackie shooting Jack behind his left ear with the small pistol hidden in the Lambchop puppet. An eyewitness named Jean Hill (no relation to Clint) reported that Jack and Jackie were looking at a small white dog between them on the seat. That was not a dog, it was the Lambchop puppet concealing Jackie's small deadly pistol!! After the assassination, Jackie became known as the "Pink Panther."

Of course, the question is why? It was Lyndon Johnson, the confederate from Texas, who was planning to nuke Washington, the Yankee capital so he could rule from Richmond under a rebel flag, banning the US flag.

The question, of course, is then, why didn't he do all those things?

Among other questions, of course (such as regarding the sanity of the moron who wrote this stuff).

And there is something about Israel, how it was saved from wicked women and men after "Rubinstein" was hired as a hit man to silence Oswald.

I've got the flyer, though. There is a website, but I refuse to link it.

 

[MicahJava]

See, the difference between you and I is that I am an old-school CTist. Before the internet, people like me had to construct a plausible line of BS to use as the foundation for our woo.

Just because elite brothels existed doesn't mean they used the dollar bill gag, but they are a place few people visited, and the odds are that nobody posting on this board was ever a customer of such establishments in 1963. This allows for a solid wall of smoke to cloud the issue, and in this case is can work against Oswald. It sounds plausible because the brothels were places few people have seen, and fewer have been inside as a paying customer. Juxtapose the shadow brothel concept with the JFK Assassination, an event that happened in broad daylight, and was filmed from three angles.

The lies began right from the start with "witnesses" claiming the back of the President's head being blown out, and later in the 1970's these same liars claimed that the Zapruder Film showed the back of the head exploding when it clearly does not.

The other thing none of the films show, nor did ANY eye-witness report is a second GSW to the back of the head. This is fantasy. Compared to the shadow-brothels it isn't plausible at all because there is zero evidence to support it. Brothels existed in Dallas in 1963, and there were certainly upscale ones. No second bullet struck JFK's head.

The dollar bills are just what the DPD said they are: torn. No spy agency, no mob family, no secret organization would have had anything to do with Oswald. He was unstable, and would have been a huge risk. People used to write on money all the time for many reasons, the presence of numbers written in pencil meant nothing in 1963.

Can you give an interesting source that talks about brothels using the dollar bill trick? If it's how you describe, it doesn't explain why Oswald had a whole, torn dollar in his pocket. You've already conceded that the dollar bills are significant in some way, can't go back to coincidence theorizing now.

 

[Axxman300]

Thanks Axxman, it looks like our conclusions and suspicions about all this align closely. Have you read or heard anything interesting about Nosenko in the newly released stuff? Have you read Bagley? Do you agree that Nosenko was either a false defector or a low-level operative that had been fed information for release to the CIA by the KGB?

The Nosenko interrogation was one of the documents just released in July. I made reference to it in a previous post.

CIA didn't know what to make of him. They suspected he'd been sent to defect by the KGB to emphasize that the Soviet Union had nothing to do with the assassination. You have to understand, he was put through the ringer at a remote CIA black site in the mountains of the eastern US.

Everyone breaks, everyone talks. His story never changed.

I'd love to play the game of "Who was Oswald working with?", and there are some interesting unanswered questions, but even if there was someone else I doubt they were anything more than another sad-sack with an agenda.

Oswald profiles as the lone shooter well before there was such a thing as profiling.

 

[Axxman300]

Can you give an interesting source that talks about brothels using the dollar bill trick? If it's how you describe, it doesn't explain why Oswald had a whole, torn dollar in his pocket. You've already conceded that the dollar bills are significant in some way, can't go back to coincidence theorizing now.

Nope and nope.

They are nothing more than another diversion that ends at a brick wall.

The only evidence that counts is the Carcano, the spent 6.5x52mm casings found on the 6th floor of the TSBD which match the two GSW to JFK and the one to Connally. The Carcano belonged to Oswald, who was in the building on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting, and was the ONLY employee to flee the building after the assassination. Oswald would later murder officer Tippet, and attempt to kill a second DPD officer in the theater during his arrest.

This is what they call overwhelming evidence.

The torn bills are a non-issue.

 

[Axxman300]

The new Nosenko files can be found here starting at:

July 2017 Release - Formerly Withheld in Full - Part 7 of 18 (Zip - 852MB) and continuing through Part 18 of 18.

Link: https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/2017-release

Have fun.

 

[MicahJava]

Nope and nope.

They are nothing more than another diversion that ends at a brick wall.

The only evidence that counts is the Carcano, the spent 6.5x52mm casings found on the 6th floor of the TSBD which match the two GSW to JFK and the one to Connally. The Carcano belonged to Oswald, who was in the building on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting, and was the ONLY employee to flee the building after the assassination. Oswald would later murder officer Tippet, and attempt to kill a second DPD officer in the theater during his arrest.

This is what they call overwhelming evidence.

The torn bills are a non-issue.

The shooting evidence is already what these threads have been mostly about, but I am also not so sure about that story of Oswald being "the only employee to flee the building after the assassination".

From Reclaiming Parkland by James DiEugenio:

The Roll Call and the Lineups

Bugliosi likes to repeat previous Warren Commission shibboleths about Oswald, whether they are accurate or not. For instance, he repeats the myth about Oswald being the only absentee from a so-called Book Depository roll call. Two of his sources are an article by Kent Biffle written eighteen years after the fact, and Commission Exhibit 3131 which does not contain any information pertinent to his point (it pertains to fingerprints on the boxes).

First of all, more than one Many years ago, Jerry Rose wrote an article which began to expose this canard. First of all, more than one business was located at the Depository. Such a roll call, if there had been one, could not account for everyone in that building. As Mark Bridger pointed out in 2007, there is no evidence that any such roll call, in the normal usage of that phrase, ever took place. At the most, there was an informal head count by Roy Truly of his own book warehouse employees, and the time for it is not definite. And even there, Oswald was not the only one missing. As Bridger points out, so was Givens. As Bridger shows, Bugliosi appears to have borrowed this roll call device from the Warren Commission, Dallas DA Henry Wade, and Gerald Posner, among others. As Bridger notes, it has little substance.

Second, as Rose pointed out, in March 1964 it was discovered that there were several people missing from the TSBD from their lunch hour until 1:30. In fact the statements made in Commission Exhibit 1381— which Bugliosi sources more than once— reveal that several of them, like Gloria Holt and Carolyn Arnold were locked out or failed to return to the TSBD after the shooting. Holt stated that she was told by others the building would be shut down and so she went home. If other people said this to her, then they must have done the same thing.

Bugliosi even tries to salvage the outrageous lineups that the Dallas Police put Oswald in on the twenty-second and the twenty-third. He acknowledges that there are honest objections to their composition, but he says they were probably inconsequential in the final analysis. He uses the example of a good identification as William Whaley, the cab driver who picked up Oswald and delivered him to his rooming house. He ignores the fact that Whaley’s identification had little if anything to do with whether or not Oswald committed the crimes he was accused of. But he also leaves out the fact that Whaley saw two pictures of Oswald before he went to the lineup. Bugliosi also uses another cab driver, William Scoggins, who was at the Tippit murder scene. According to Bugliosi, he is a good lineup witness who identified Oswald. On this occasion, Oswald was shouting out how it was unfair to place him in a lineup in which he was wearing only a T-shirt while others wore sport coats. How could Scoggins not pick him out? But yet, Bugliosi missed reporting the fact that outside the lineup, when a series of photos were shown to him by the FBI, he was not sure about which was Oswald.

 

[HSienzant]

The shooting evidence is already what these threads have been mostly about, but I am also not so sure about that story of Oswald being "the only employee to flee the building after the assassination".

From Reclaiming Parkland by James DiEugenio:

The Roll Call and the Lineups

Bugliosi likes to repeat previous Warren Commission shibboleths about Oswald, whether they are accurate or not. For instance, he repeats the myth about Oswald being the only absentee from a so-called Book Depository roll call. Two of his sources are an article by Kent Biffle written eighteen years after the fact, and Commission Exhibit 3131 which does not contain any information pertinent to his point (it pertains to fingerprints on the boxes).

First of all, more than one Many years ago, Jerry Rose wrote an article which began to expose this canard. First of all, more than one business was located at the Depository. Such a roll call, if there had been one, could not account for everyone in that building. As Mark Bridger pointed out in 2007, there is no evidence that any such roll call, in the normal usage of that phrase, ever took place. At the most, there was an informal head count by Roy Truly of his own book warehouse employees, and the time for it is not definite. And even there, Oswald was not the only one missing. As Bridger points out, so was Givens. As Bridger shows, Bugliosi appears to have borrowed this roll call device from the Warren Commission, Dallas DA Henry Wade, and Gerald Posner, among others. As Bridger notes, it has little substance.

Second, as Rose pointed out, in March 1964 it was discovered that there were several people missing from the TSBD from their lunch hour until 1:30. In fact the statements made in Commission Exhibit 1381— which Bugliosi sources more than once— reveal that several of them, like Gloria Holt and Carolyn Arnold were locked out or failed to return to the TSBD after the shooting. Holt stated that she was told by others the building would be shut down and so she went home. If other people said this to her, then they must have done the same thing.

Bugliosi even tries to salvage the outrageous lineups that the Dallas Police put Oswald in on the twenty-second and the twenty-third. He acknowledges that there are honest objections to their composition, but he says they were probably inconsequential in the final analysis. He uses the example of a good identification as William Whaley, the cab driver who picked up Oswald and delivered him to his rooming house. He ignores the fact that Whaley’s identification had little if anything to do with whether or not Oswald committed the crimes he was accused of. But he also leaves out the fact that Whaley saw two pictures of Oswald before he went to the lineup. Bugliosi also uses another cab driver, William Scoggins, who was at the Tippit murder scene. According to Bugliosi, he is a good lineup witness who identified Oswald. On this occasion, Oswald was shouting out how it was unfair to place him in a lineup in which he was wearing only a T-shirt while others wore sport coats. How could Scoggins not pick him out? But yet, Bugliosi missed reporting the fact that outside the lineup, when a series of photos were shown to him by the FBI, he was not sure about which was Oswald.

Oswald was the only person in the building during the assassination to leave the building in the first three minutes after the shooting and leave the scene to go pick up his revolver. He was also the only person to leave his rifle behind on the sixth floor.

Hank

 

[RoboTimbo]

Oswald was the only person in the building during the assassination to leave the building in the first three minutes after the shooting and leave the scene to go pick up his revolver. He was also the only person to leave his rifle behind on the sixth floor.

Hank

The only person to shoot and kill officer Tippitt with that revolver and attempt to shoot more officers when confronted in the movie theater.

 

[Axxman300]

The shooting evidence is already what these threads have been mostly about, but I am also not so sure about that story of Oswald being "the only employee to flee the building after the assassination".

The shooting evidence is the most important being that the President died from gunshot wounds.

Everything else is just pointless noise.

*plus, you can't cite a CT book as fact*

 

[HSienzant]

The shooting evidence is the most important being that the President died from gunshot wounds. Everything else is just pointless noise.

You're absolutely right of course, but let's dissect MicahJava's pointless noise for the fun of it.

The shooting evidence is already what these threads have been mostly about, but I am also not so sure about that story of Oswald being "the only employee to flee the building after the assassination".

Can you name another employee "...to flee the building after the assassination"? No. There were no others. That leaves Oswald as the only one known to have fled. And remember, he's also the only one who left his rifle behind in the building. Surely those two facts, in concert, count for more than each alone, don't you think?

From Reclaiming Parkland by James DiEugenio:

The Roll Call and the Lineups
Bugliosi likes to repeat previous Warren Commission shibboleths about Oswald, whether they are accurate or not. For instance, he repeats the myth about Oswald being the only absentee from a so-called Book Depository roll call. Two of his sources are an article by Kent Biffle written eighteen years after the fact, and Commission Exhibit 3131 which does not contain any information pertinent to his point (it pertains to fingerprints on the boxes).

This is more of what DiEugenio does, taking claims out of context and quibbling about minor points. In point of fact, it was Roy Truly, Oswald's supervisor, who noticed him missing and reported that fact to the police. Truly's testimony on that point:
Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.
There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys.
So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.
First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no.
Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?
Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and he said no.
So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said, "Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that.
So I picked the phone up then and called Mr. Aiken, at the warehouse, and got the boy's name and general description and telephone number and address at Irving.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have any address for him in Dallas, or did you just have an address in Irving?
Mr. TRULY. Just the address in Irving. I knew nothing of this Dallas address. I didn't know he was living away from his family.
Mr. BELIN. Now, would that be the address and the description as shown on this application, Exhibit 496?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ask for the name and addresses of any other employees who might have been missing?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you ask for any other employees?
Mr. TRULY. That is the only one that I could be certain right then was missing.

Now, whether you want to quibble and call the police taking the names of the employees for the record as a 'roll call' is relatively meaningless. What is pertinent is Truly was the genesis for the police knowing they were seeking an employee named Lee Harvey Oswald for questioning. When a person of the same name was arrested in the Texas Theatre as a suspect in the killing of a police officer after the assassination, it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out this "Lee Harvey Oswald" character might be involved in both murders.

First of all, more than one

You apparently started one thought here and abandoned it.

Many years ago, Jerry Rose wrote an article which began to expose this canard. First of all, more than one business was located at the Depository. Such a roll call, if there had been one, could not account for everyone in that building.

Nobody ever suggested it did, so this argument reduces to a strawman argument raised by Rose merely to knock down. Truly's noticing Oswald was not present, and confirming Shelley hadn't seen him, was enough to get Oswald reported to the police as 'missing'. The roll call wasn't why Oswald was arrested in any case, so why do you think this minor incident is even worth discussing? You don't say, except, of course, conspiracy theorists apparently must quibble about everything before breakfast, or they feel incomplete.

As Mark Bridger pointed out in 2007, there is no evidence that any such roll call, in the normal usage of that phrase, ever took place. At the most, there was an informal head count by Roy Truly of his own book warehouse employees, and the time for it is not definite.

More quibbles. The fact of the matter is Truly noticed the police taking the names of the employees and thought that giving them Oswald's name might be important, as he was then not accounted for. The fact that Truly saw Oswald IN the building about 90 seconds after the assassination (with Officer Baker) could have entered into his determination that he should provide Oswald's name to the police.

And even there, Oswald was not the only one missing. As Bridger points out, so was Givens.

Givens was outside the building at the time of the assassination, and was still outside at the time of Truly noticing Oswald wasn't present as the police were taking names. Truly also hadn't seen Givens about 90 seconds after the assassination, so Givens' name wasn't foremost in Truly's mind. And as it turned out, Givens neither left a rifle behind nor shot and killed a police officer in the ensuing 45 minutes. And, as Truly mentioned in his testimony, "That is the only one [Oswald] that I could be certain right then was missing."

As Bridger shows, Bugliosi appears to have borrowed this roll call device from the Warren Commission, Dallas DA Henry Wade, and Gerald Posner, among others. As Bridger notes, it has little substance.

What would be a more appropriate English word for the police segregating the workers and taking their names and addresses? I am open to suggestions. Got one? If not, then 'roll call' will have to do.

Second, as Rose pointed out, in March 1964 it was discovered that there were several people missing from the TSBD from their lunch hour until 1:30. In fact the statements made in Commission Exhibit 1381— which Bugliosi sources more than once— reveal that several of them, like Gloria Holt and Carolyn Arnold were locked out or failed to return to the TSBD after the shooting.

And in point of fact, NONE of them reported to Roy Truly, so he had no reason to recall their names or report them missing. And he hadn't seen any of them within the building in the 90 seconds immediately following the shooting, so, again, Truly had no reason to think their being outside his purview was significant. But Oswald? Oswald reported to Truly and Oswald was seen by Truly inside the building a short time before. And now Oswald wasn't around. Truly felt that significant enough to mention to the police. So Truly reported that. What's the big deal here? The word 'roll call' annoys you that much? Call it what you wish. Truly reported Oswald missing. That's the fact. And no amount of quibbling over what the proper English word is for this will ever change that fact. This is why conspiracy theorists have such a bad reputation... they ignore the wheat and concentrate on the chaff.

Holt stated that she was told by others the building would be shut down and so she went home. If other people said this to her, then they must have done the same thing.

Or not. Beside which, there's no evidence these 'others' reported to Truly or were seen by him in the 90 seconds following the shooting, right? So why would Truly think of them, or report their names and addresses to the police, if he even knew these others? As you note, but appear to have a double-standard about, there were multiple businesses in the TSBD, and Truly was part of only one business. So why quibble over the others?

Bugliosi even tries to salvage the outrageous lineups that the Dallas Police put Oswald in on the twenty-second and the twenty-third. He acknowledges that there are honest objections to their composition, but he says they were probably inconsequential in the final analysis. He uses the example of a good identification as William Whaley, the cab driver who picked up Oswald and delivered him to his rooming house. He ignores the fact that Whaley’s identification had little if anything to do with whether or not Oswald committed the crimes he was accused of. But he also leaves out the fact that Whaley saw two pictures of Oswald before he went to the lineup. Bugliosi also uses another cab driver, William Scoggins, who was at the Tippit murder scene. According to Bugliosi, he is a good lineup witness who identified Oswald. On this occasion, Oswald was shouting out how it was unfair to place him in a lineup in which he was wearing only a T-shirt while others wore sport coats. How could Scoggins not pick him out? But yet, Bugliosi missed reporting the fact that outside the lineup, when a series of photos were shown to him by the FBI, he was not sure about which was Oswald.

Well, now, this is just a change of subject from why Oswald was reported to the police. It's almost like you know your arguments about the putative roll call are worthless, and you're already lining up another point to argue in its stead.

Beyond that, it's important to note that there's no civil rights protection for someone who deliberately calls attention to himself during a police lineup. Having done so, you don't then get to suggest the lineups were invalid and should be disregarded because you called attention to yourself. Otherwise, every suspect would use this ploy every time they were in a lineup in an attempt to get the results of the lineups thrown out.

And beyond that, the lineups really don't matter. This is again another quibble by you. The weapon recovered from the Depository was Oswald's, he left his prints on the weapon in two places, there are photos of him with the weapon, it was determined on the afternoon of the assassination to be missing from its normal hiding place in the Paine garage, and the Kleins business records show it was shipped to his PO Box. The revolver pulled from his hand in the theatre was determined to be the one used to kill Officer Tippit, to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world. Ditto with his rifle used to killed President Kennedy.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

Can you give an interesting source that talks about brothels using the dollar bill trick? If it's how you describe, it doesn't explain why Oswald had a whole, torn dollar in his pocket. You've already conceded that the dollar bills are significant in some way, can't go back to coincidence theorizing now.

Why do you think Oswald had a whole, torn dollar bill in his pocket? It can't be to identify someone at the Texas Theatre, because that requires the other person to have the other half of the dollar bill, and Oswald has the whole dollar. So where's the whole dollar with a slight tear gain its significance?

How do you explain it? And do you have any direct *evidence* for your explanation?

And how do you explain the piece of paper about two other half dollars not linked to Oswald found in the archives? What's the *evidence* of their significance to this case?

Hank

 

[turingtest]

You're absolutely right of course, but let's dissect MicahJava's pointless noise for the fun of it.

...

Might as well- that's the only reason he's doing it.

 

[Elagabalus]

The only person to shoot and kill officer Tippitt with that revolver and attempt to shoot more officers when confronted in the movie theater.

He only shot Tippit because he was late for the meeting with his Russian "Handlers" who were patiently waiting for him at the Texas Theatre so he could give them the other half of the dollar bill.

Oswald was a spy who wasn't a spy. Just a patsy ... or something.

 

[pgwenthold]

He only shot Tippit because he was late for the meeting with his Russian "Handlers" who were patiently waiting for him at the Texas Theatre so he could give them the other half of the dollar bill.

Oswald was a spy who wasn't a spy. Just a patsy ... or something.

I'm sorry, these days, I can't take seriously any conspiracy theory that does not include a Lampchop puppet (see my post above).

 

[Axxman300]

You're absolutely right of course, but let's dissect MicahJava's pointless noise for the fun of it.

All of this took place within a few minutes after the shooting. There is controlled chaos, people are upset, and there were employees watching the motorcade from outside the building.

To expect order in a catastrophic situation is asinine.

I'm not up on my time-lines anymore, but the rifle and sniper's nest had yet to be found during the "roll-call". I don't know this as fact, but DPD had to have officers inside other buildings doing the same thing, at least until the rifle was located.

We're talking about maybe 35 minutes here before the perimeter collapses to the TSBD. The best example of the confusion in Dealey Plaza is news cameraman Tom Alyea getting inside the TSBD. Law enforcement was too busy to toss him out, and he recorded important footage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1eD6Ac9l_E

By this time the TSBD had become the center of the universe, and this is in evidence by the number of guys on the 6th floor in the footage.

 

[Axxman300]

I'm sorry, these days, I can't take seriously any conspiracy theory that does not include a Lampchop puppet (see my post above).

My money has always been on actor Wally Cox as revenge for Marilyn Monroe.

 

[OKBob]

He only shot Tippit because he was late for the meeting with his Russian "Handlers" who were patiently waiting for him at the Texas Theatre so he could give them the other half of the dollar bill.

Oswald was a spy who wasn't a spy. Just a patsy ... or something.

Please prove these claims. We're not interested in portentous allegations.

 

[OKBob]

To expect order in a catastrophic situation is asinine.

Good point. The CT expectation you identify is a good example of what has been called, on this list, the "If I Ran the Zoo" fallacy. It might be called the "I'm the New Sheriff in Town" fallacy. Essentially, it imposes on a set of facts a heightened rule or normative expectation that is arbitrarily summoned and not grounded in recognized legal, historiographical, or common-sense standards. It is fallacious for at least two reasons. On the one hand, it begs the question of research methodology; on the other, it sets up a straw-man standard of performance that few humans acting within controlled or uncontrolled chaos could ever satisfy.

 

[abaddon]

Please prove these claims. We're not interested in portentous allegations.

"Sarcasm" is a seven letter word beginning with "S".

Jebus.